Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

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Joey Stewart
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Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

Post by Joey Stewart » Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:50 pm

Here is a good one for you rules lawyers to chew over.

One guy is clearly qinning but down to his last few seconds. He pushes his pawn to the 8th rank and shouts queen, which would deliver checkmate and end the game.

At the same time his opponent then sees the flag drop and claims a win because the queen piece had not yet been placed on the board, only declared.


Which player gets the win?
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:11 pm

IIRC the new piece has to appear on the board for a promotion move to be considered completed?

Merely stating verbally what you intend to do is, in that case, not sufficient and the player in question would lose the game.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:27 pm

Matt Mackenzie wrote:IIRC the new piece has to appear on the board for a promotion move to be considered completed?
Completed isn't actually relevant here, but the new piece has to appear on the board for a promotion move to be considered made.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:53 pm

Joey Stewart wrote:One guy is clearly qinning but down to his last few seconds. He pushes his pawn to the 8th rank and shouts queen, which would deliver checkmate and end the game.

At the same time his opponent then sees the flag drop and claims a win because the queen piece had not yet been placed on the board, only declared.

Which player gets the win?
Loss for the player promoting a pawn because the game is not over until the queen is placed on the board.

Here's a slightly different scenario where I think the player would win though - push the pawn to the 8th rank and press his clock before the flag falls. That's an illegal move for which he'd be penalised, but the pawn would then have to be replaced by a queen, ending the game (provided the player has not made another illegal move earlier in the game).

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:02 pm

Ian Thompson wrote: Loss for the player promoting a pawn because the game is not over until the queen is placed on the board.
That says the safer technique is the one where you have the spare queen in your hand, remove the pawn from the seventh and drop the queen on the eighth. That delivers mate, so the game is over. FIDE ruled explicitly, not so long ago, that was a valid method of promotion.

What would an arbiter rule if he or she saw promotion being done two handed like Nakamura castling?

E Michael White
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Re: Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

Post by E Michael White » Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:57 pm

Some of the postings in reply have been made but not completed !
Matt Mackenzie wrote:IIRC the new piece has to appear on the board for a promotion move to be considered completed?
.. and the promoted pawn and any captured piece removed from the board.
IM Jack Rudd wrote:Completed isn't actually relevant here, but the new piece has to appear on the board for a promotion move to be considered made.
Completion is relevant. According to what is written in the rules an illegal move can be completed, by pressing the clock but it is never made. Where made has the special meaning defined in the Laws.
Ian Thompson wrote:Loss for the player promoting a pawn because the game is not over until the queen is placed on the board
I agree the guy attempting promotion should lose.
Ian Thompson wrote:Here's a slightly different scenario where I think the player would win though - push the pawn to the 8th rank and press his clock before the flag falls. That's an illegal move for which he'd be penalised, but the pawn would then have to be replaced by a queen, ending the game (provided the player has not made another illegal move earlier in the game).
I don't agree that's what the laws say. The position would have to be replaced back to before the promotion move was attempted causing the player to lose.
Roger de Coverly wrote:That says the safer technique is the one where you have the spare queen in your hand, remove the pawn from the seventh and drop the queen on the eighth. That delivers mate, so the game is over. FIDE ruled explicitly, not so long ago, that was a valid method of promotion. What would an arbiter rule if he or she saw promotion being done two handed like Nakamura castling?
Players often play capturing or promoting moves two-handed. The laws are badly drafted and do not clearly make this entirely illegal. I expect players and junior arbiters would like the rules to be clearer and two handed moves barred. Some more senior ENG arbiters seem to delight in unclear rules and feel they should judge cases on what they consider as their merits.

FIDE ruled the two or three parts to promotion could be played in any order; they did not specify some parts could be omitted.

Richard Thursby
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Re: Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

Post by Richard Thursby » Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:13 pm

E Michael White wrote: Players often play capturing or promoting moves two-handed. The laws are badly drafted and do not clearly make this entirely illegal.
It appears quite clear to me:
FIDE Laws of Chess wrote: 4.1 Each move must be made with one hand only.
I was involved in a time scramble about a year ago when my opponent was making captures with two hands. When I pointed this out to them after the game concluded, they seemed to think it was OK to do it, and this being someone who might be described as semi-professional.

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Re: Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

Post by Neill Cooper » Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:18 pm

Joey Stewart wrote:One guy is clearly winning but down to his last few seconds. He pushes his pawn to the 8th rank and shouts queen, which would deliver checkmate and end the game.
I think he should have pushed the pawn, stopped the clock and asked for a queen.

E Michael White
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Re: Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

Post by E Michael White » Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:32 pm

Richard Thursby wrote:It appears quite clear to me:FIDE Laws of Chess wrote:4.1 Each move must be made with one hand only.
Check out the definition of "(move) made" in the laws. The word made does not have its usual ENG meaning in the laws.

Steven DuCharme
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Re: Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

Post by Steven DuCharme » Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:05 pm

The promoter should be doing the promoting imo. Otherwise your opponent could just refuse and let your clock run out
I float like a pawn island and sting like an ignored knight :mrgreen:

Ian Thompson
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Re: Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

Post by Ian Thompson » Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:34 am

E Michael White wrote:
Ian Thompson wrote:Here's a slightly different scenario where I think the player would win though - push the pawn to the 8th rank and press his clock before the flag falls. That's an illegal move for which he'd be penalised, but the pawn would then have to be replaced by a queen, ending the game (provided the player has not made another illegal move earlier in the game).
I don't agree that's what the laws say. The position would have to be replaced back to before the promotion move was attempted causing the player to lose.
Law 7.5a - "If the player has moved a pawn to the furthest distant rank, pressed the clock, but not replaced the pawn with a new piece, the move is illegal. The pawn shall be replaced by a queen of the same colour as the pawn."

In this particular case the illegal move is not retracted, it is corrected to promotion to a queen, at which point the game is over.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:40 am

All of these niceties could be solved by changing the law on flags to say:

A player's flag is deemed to have fallen when this is observed by the opponent on his own move. A player drawing attention to a fallen flag when it is not his move contravenes the law on distracting his opponent. [We would still need an arbiter to be able to intervene as otherwise a player could achieve a draw by the technique of waiting for domesday].

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:43 am

Michael Farthing wrote: A player's flag is deemed to have fallen when this is observed by the opponent on his own move.
The problem is that you would be reversing the old "Rumens" decision, which was that Mate and by extension Stalemate ended the game and if the flag fell between placing the piece on the board and pressing the clock, that didn't matter.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:50 am

Not at all. The laws state that checkmate and stalemate immediately end the game. At this point when the player has made the move the game is ended and it is too late for his opponent to claim. That situation is unchanged.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Do you have to compete promotion to win ?

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:59 am

"I think he should have pushed the pawn, stopped the clock and asked for a queen."

Neat answer!

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