What should happen in this situation?

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Brian Towers
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Re: What should happen in this situation?

Post by Brian Towers » Sun May 15, 2016 9:40 pm

David Blower wrote:
Michael Farthing wrote:Player A should win. Anyone that sad clearly needs cheering up.
Player A did indeed win. I was player A.

My opponent agreed with my claim and resigned.
Did it cheer you up?
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

Paul Dargan
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Re: What should happen in this situation?

Post by Paul Dargan » Sun May 15, 2016 9:40 pm

@ David - it would be interesting to know what was going on on the board at the time. I don't know many opponents who would have been so generous if they were not seriously worse on the board at the time?

Paul

David Blower
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Re: What should happen in this situation?

Post by David Blower » Sun May 15, 2016 9:56 pm

Brian Towers wrote:
David Blower wrote:
Michael Farthing wrote:Player A should win. Anyone that sad clearly needs cheering up.
Player A did indeed win. I was player A.

My opponent agreed with my claim and resigned.
Did it cheer you up?
Not really.

However, given the state of the board, the clocks, and the match importance, I felt it was right to claim the game at the time, and just wanted to know what the rule book said.

David Blower
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Re: What should happen in this situation?

Post by David Blower » Sun May 15, 2016 10:12 pm

The exact position is unknown.

However I had my king, knight and two pawns. My opponent had king, bishop and pawn. Therefore I am a pawn up. My opponent only had 4 minutes left.

I had not noticed that my opponent had not pressed his clock, but was in the process of thinking of my next move when the spectator called out to my opponent to press his clock. As it happens I normally give a warning to my opponent to press his clock if I have noticed they haven't.

I did initially say to the spectator that he wasn't really suppose to do that. However, given the match importance and the fact that the spectator obviously had a vested interest in the outcome of this game, and the overall outcome of the match, I then decided (and it only took me a few seconds, so it was done by instinct) that even a very final strict warning was still too lenient.

Ian Thompson
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Re: What should happen in this situation?

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun May 15, 2016 11:53 pm

David Blower wrote:The exact position is unknown.

However I had my king, knight and two pawns. My opponent had king, bishop and pawn. Therefore I am a pawn up. My opponent only had 4 minutes left.

I had not noticed that my opponent had not pressed his clock, but was in the process of thinking of my next move when the spectator called out to my opponent to press his clock. As it happens I normally give a warning to my opponent to press his clock if I have noticed they haven't.

I did initially say to the spectator that he wasn't really suppose to do that. However, given the match importance and the fact that the spectator obviously had a vested interest in the outcome of this game, and the overall outcome of the match, I then decided (and it only took me a few seconds, so it was done by instinct) that even a very final strict warning was still too lenient.
As pointed out above, your opponent has done nothing wrong, so there is no basis at all for penalising him. Kevin Thurlow was right to say that a penalty on the opposing team was the right way to deal with this.

As a matter of interest, if you were playing in a tournament and a spectator came up to you and gave you some advice you hadn't asked for would you expect the arbiter to forfeit you?

David Blower
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Re: What should happen in this situation?

Post by David Blower » Mon May 16, 2016 12:07 am

Well I did feel sorry for my opponent if that helps! Hopefully the spectator involved will have learnt from the experience.

A question I asked earlier has still not been answered. If the official rules state that nothing can be done, what is to stop me in matches having advice from the best players at my club. I can then claim "I did nothing wrong, I didn't ask for the advice," and win easily, (although it wouldn't be me really winning the match.)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: What should happen in this situation?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon May 16, 2016 12:16 am

David Blower wrote: If the official rules state that nothing can be done, what is to stop me in matches having advice from the best players at my club.
I would suggest there's quite a difference between a spectator suggesting a move or plan and nudging a player to press their clock.

It is a problem when players are sufficiently confused or disorganised that they don't press their clock. You can resolve the situation by playing a move, alternatively try the dirty tricks department of pretending that it's not your move, hoping for a win on time. Whether you attempt to claim the game when the opposing team nudge their player to press the clock is something of a decision as to in what spirit you want to play local league games. If a league continues to be run on a "no arbiters present" basis, a confrontational approach of trying to penalise minor infringements is best avoided.

David Blower
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Re: What should happen in this situation?

Post by David Blower » Mon May 16, 2016 12:27 am

I was not trying to win by simply letting my opponents time run down. I generally had not noticed.

I also know there is a difference between the best players at my club telling me a plan, and a teammate telling my opponent to press his clock, but the question of what is unacceptable or not is one which can only be answered on a case by case basis.

David Williams
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Re: What should happen in this situation?

Post by David Williams » Mon May 16, 2016 12:33 am

I'm sure anyone who has played league chess for any length of time will have witnessed exactly this. Maybe not quite as often as someone pointing out that a flag has fallen. It seems pretty clear to me that there is no meaningful penalty - certainly no grounds whatever for claiming the game. This is precisely the sort of thing that leagues need to make their own rules about, but it can surely only be a deduction from the offending team's points. The result of the game in question has to stand.

Are there any leagues that do actually have such a rule?

PS What should you do if you see that your team-mate, playing a blind player, has written down a move of his opponent's but forgotten to make the move on the board?

Michael Flatt
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Re: What should happen in this situation?

Post by Michael Flatt » Mon May 16, 2016 9:21 am

It's sad to see how modern players have become so obsessed with the Laws of Chess.

In Junior tournaments near beginners seem to have been taught to demand a win for an illegal move by their opponent. At that level they should be focusing on how to win the game by their own efforts, particularly if they want to improve as players.

E Michael White
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Re: What should happen in this situation?

Post by E Michael White » Mon May 16, 2016 10:21 am

Michael Flatt wrote:It's sad to see how modern players have become so obsessed with the Laws of Chess.

In Junior tournaments near beginners seem to have been taught to demand a win for an illegal move by their opponent. At that level they should be focusing on how to win the game by their own efforts, particularly if they want to improve as players.
It's good to see most players wish for clearer rules and greater consistency amongst arbiters, allowing arbiters an easier time and players the chance to play chess.

There was apparently a near incident at Frome over the weekend. My info is second or third hand so may not be entirely correct. A lad aged about 12 was playing and had only about 6 seconds left with a clear mating line if he saw it. His opponent played an illegal move with the arbiter next to the board watching. The arbiter said nothing; the young lad pointed out the illegality which was corrected. The arbiter still said nothing and did not add two minutes to the lads clock. Play continued and fortunately the lad found the mate in three. But what if he hadn't and his time had expired ? The correct action for the arbiter is to point out the illegal move and offer the player two minutes extra. It seems this arbiter attitude comes from senior ENG arbiters who are granted a title for life and aren't required to retake the exam after a new set of laws comes into effect ; they then speak on training courses passing on different views to more junior arbiters. Arbiters who think they can make up their own variants do not improve the quality of the game or tournaments.

On David Blower's first point it seems to me the fault lies with Team B's captain who has not explained important laws to his players before they play in matches. A logical League rule could be to ban the captain or strongest payer from the next match.

David Williams
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Re: What should happen in this situation?

Post by David Williams » Mon May 16, 2016 10:39 am

E Michael White wrote:On David Blower's first point it seems to me the fault lies with Team B's captain who has not explained important laws to his players before they play in matches. A logical League rule would be to ban the captain or strongest payer from the next match.
If, hypothetically, I was Team B's captain I might well have a different version of events to tell, and I would definitely claim that all my team were fully aware of the laws. If one of them had a momentary lapse I would take a very dim view of being banned myself - an illogical and completely disproportionate sanction. Are you going to ban me if someone's mobile phone goes off, or they pick up a piece and say "J'adoube"?

I think a sensible league rule would be that the League Controller has the power to penalise the offending team one game point - having heard both sides.

David Blower
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Re: What should happen in this situation?

Post by David Blower » Mon May 16, 2016 9:22 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:It's sad to see how modern players have become so obsessed with the Laws of Chess.

In Junior tournaments near beginners seem to have been taught to demand a win for an illegal move by their opponent. At that level they should be focusing on how to win the game by their own efforts, particularly if they want to improve as players.
The thing is though improving as a player is a long term thing. I don't know any junior who thinks during the game "if I play out this endgame I'll improve as a player."

Sean Hewitt
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Re: What should happen in this situation?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Mon May 16, 2016 11:09 pm

If I ever felt the desire to claim a game under these circumstances I'd know it was time to give up playing.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: What should happen in this situation?

Post by Michael Farthing » Tue May 17, 2016 9:21 am

David Blower wrote: The thing is though improving as a player is a long term thing. I don't know any junior who thinks during the game "if I play out this endgame I'll improve as a player."
This may be so, but it is the responsibility of those around them to help them come to this realisation. Do NOT encourage them to claim on illegal moves: do encourage them to view each game as a learning experience. I remember aged about 12 playing a particular poor game in my school club. I tore up the game score in disgust with myself and was greeted by a chorus of disapproval from older boys (including my still missed friend, the late Bruce Birchall) who told me in no uncertain terms that it is one's losses that are the most valuable. Such a simple reaction has lived with me ever since and I do not believe I have torn up a gamescore since. Education (ex ducare - leading out) is our job.

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