What is the result of the game?

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stevencarr

What is the result of the game?

Post by stevencarr » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:49 pm

A question based on Sztern-Lundquist 1983

Black offers a draw. White, within his rights, asks Black to first make a move.

Black then announces mate in 3.

As mate is the end of the game, is the result a win for Black?

In the game, White resigned. Should he have accepted the draw?

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: What is the result of the game?

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:51 pm

Mate itself is the end of the game. Announcing mate in 3 is outside the scope of the rules. Black's move immediately after the draw offer was not checkmate, therefore the game had not ended, so white was still entitled to accept the draw.

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Mike W. Richardt
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Re: What is the result of the game?

Post by Mike W. Richardt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:46 pm

But, Just out of curiosity: Does the draw offer stand?

Just wondering?
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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: What is the result of the game?

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:58 pm

Mike W. Richardt wrote:But, Just out of curiosity: Does the draw offer stand?

Just wondering?
Yes. A draw offer stands until either:
(a) it is accepted
(b) it is declined
(c) the player offered the draw makes a move
or (d) the game is concluded by some other means.

E Michael White
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Re: What is the result of the game?

Post by E Michael White » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:03 pm

This is more complicated than Jack suggests.

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Mike W. Richardt
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Re: What is the result of the game?

Post by Mike W. Richardt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:19 pm

So, by black making a move the draw offer is withdrawn in the above scenario?
technically speaking!!!!!
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Re: What is the result of the game?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:24 pm

Mike W. Richardt wrote:So, by black making a move the draw offer is withdrawn in the above scenario?
It isn't legal to offer a draw when not your move. It's done though and if the opponent wants a draw, it will likely be accepted. Because it isn't legal to make the offer whilst not your move, opponents are able to ask to see the proposed move. Unless it's mate in one, I don't see how the initial offer can be withdrawn, no matter how good the move.

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Re: What is the result of the game?

Post by Michael Flatt » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:27 pm


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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: What is the result of the game?

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:30 pm

Mike W. Richardt wrote:So, by black making a move the draw offer is withdrawn in the above scenario?
technically speaking!!!!!
No, because black offered the draw. The draw offer is withdrawn when white next makes a move.

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MJMcCready
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Re: What is the result of the game?

Post by MJMcCready » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:57 pm

Was that the case in 1983?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: What is the result of the game?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:44 pm

MJMcCready wrote:Was that the case in 1983?
I believe it goes back at least as far as the 1951 match between Botvinnik and Bronstein where Bronstein argued for a rule change as he felt draw offers whilst he was considering his move to be distracting.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: What is the result of the game?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:12 pm

Michael Flatt wrote:The actual position is given here: http://www.kingpinchess.net/2010/03/not ... -magazine/
Because it is mate in four (not three), and Black's claim is incorrect, the game is awarded to White.

David Williams
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Re: What is the result of the game?

Post by David Williams » Tue Aug 30, 2016 7:31 pm

I've never had the nerve to do it, but the logical response to a draw offer when it is your opponent to move, is to say "I'll think about it".

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Re: What is the result of the game?

Post by Nick Grey » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:29 pm

The result is a loss because white resigned.
Miles comment was brilliant.

No one has played 4.g4 in the Benko against me - years of preparation based upon this brilliant NoTBCM article.

Have you not resigned a drawn game or a won game?

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: What is the result of the game?

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:13 pm

Nick Grey wrote: Have you not resigned a drawn game or a won game?
Pleased to say I never have, though I have offered draws (of course, accepted) in totally won positions a couple of times :oops:
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

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