When do you resign?

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Roger de Coverly
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Re: When do you resign?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:45 am

Brian Towers wrote:He again missed a good moment to resign as he was either going to bury his rook on a3 or face 2 extra connected passed pawns supported by the king.
Keith Arkell once drew that ending of Rook and two v Rook. Admittedly they might have been g and h pawns. It doesn't rewrite all we thought we knew about such endings, but it does demonstrate the hazards of trying to win by depriving the King of moves. I don't recall the exact position, but the idea is something like this.


Black to play and draw

Nick Ivell
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Re: When do you resign?

Post by Nick Ivell » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:26 pm

Going back to Roger's game. Clearly not resignable after ...Bxb1. Why? Because Qb3 clearly creates tricks. Black ended up with extra material but an unsafe king. King safety is the most important thing in chess. So White had swindling chances. The time to resign is when all swindling chances have gone. But never resign based on a calculation done on the opponent's behalf. Make the opponent demonstrate!

Stewart Reuben
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Re: When do you resign?

Post by Stewart Reuben » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:24 am

Bent Larsen once said, 'You should never resign until all the spectators know why you are resignng.' I had visions of going among the audience, asking, 'Now you do understand why I'm resigning?'
In the 1993 Kasparov Short match there were complaints to me that the players were resigning in the middle of the game.
I think where the games are played with spectators, many people do resign prematurely. I am sure the players want to get away from their horrible positions as quickly as possible. One game in Gibraltar a GM resigned and the commentator, Simon Willaims, couldn'tg explain why.

Of course our games are not played in front of spectators. When to resign is then a matter of social etiquette.

Where your opponent has resigned after playing on for a vey long time. The late Tony Miles had a good comment. 'I can't understand why he resigned then, it was the best position he'd had all game.'

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: When do you resign?

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:39 am

"Bent Larsen once said, 'You should never resign until all the spectators know why you are resigning.'"

That is a good guide. I have asked a few strong players about people playing on when they're completely lost and the general opinion is, "If they really want to find out how I win from a piece up, that's ok." When acting as arbiter, I have had people grumbling their opponent is playing on, so I point out the opponent has paid an entry fee and probably wants value for money.

I played someone at Hastings years ago that played on when I had RR+6 vs R+6, when I eventually promoted a pawn, I had a rook, so it was now RRR+5 vs R+6. He immediately resigned, probably because everyone would have said, "How did your opponent get three rooks?"

Reg Clucas
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Re: When do you resign?

Post by Reg Clucas » Wed Sep 28, 2016 1:04 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote: I am sure the players want to get away from their horrible positions as quickly as possible.
I can understand that point of view.

A few years ago, after being outplayed by a much weaker opponent, I found myself the exchange and two pawns down without compensation. It was probably resignable, but as I had 30 seconds left to make two moves before the intermediate time control, I decided I might as well bash out a couple of moves and then take stock.

My first move allowed my opponent a mate in one, which I saw as soon as my hand left the piece. My immediate reaction was to resign there and then, but I decided to allow him the satisfaction of making the checkmate move. He had plenty of time left, but after studying the board for a couple of minutes made a different move.

My relief was tempered with irritation that I would now have to play on in what was still a hopeless position. I could have still resigned, but as it was an away match I would have just had to sit around waiting for my team mates to finish, so I played on. From this point on my opponent started to make moves more befitting his lowly grade, and proceeded to first throw away the win, and then 'simplify' into what was a lost ending for him.

So I suppose the answer to the question is 'it depends' - not so much on the position, rather on your confidence in the ability of your opponent.

MartinCarpenter
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Re: When do you resign?

Post by MartinCarpenter » Wed Sep 28, 2016 2:16 pm

Teams matches have lots of their own considerations anyway - seeing a team mate losing quickly is never a nice thing to have to watch so you tend to prolong it. Never too much I think as neither it is fun watching someone go through a prolonged period of major suffering with no gain in sight!

Roger de Coverly
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Re: When do you resign?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Sep 28, 2016 3:31 pm

Another example

In this position, Black to move, I resigned against Simon Williams.



Make it a g pawn on the other hand and it's a draw. This is a position which makes it to the endgame manuals.



I expect Simon knew that the g pawn ending was drawn, but his g pawn had long since gone from the board. (It had been a King's Indian where g4 had been met by f5). I don't think I was aware until someone suggested that I may have resigned in a drawn position.

Had it been a g pawn, I might have played on. As it was I saw what I thought was a clear plan of advancing the f pawn. This eventually reaches f6, kicking the King from g7. The tablebase confirms this as the winning idea. You work on the assumptions that IMs about to become GMs know these things.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: When do you resign?

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:17 pm

The Larsen advice is spot on, though I heard it ; "....till everyone in the room knows why."

There is no FIDE rule to tell a player when they should resign.

Getting all high and mighty because your opponent will not resign displays a character flaw.
I've no idea who these people think they are demanding that once a piece up their opponents resign.
(whilst here, what on earth is a very strong FM. An FM is someone who has failed to become an IM or a GM, they are strong.)

You should concentrate on the game and not go in the huff because you think your opponent should resign.
If you are a piece up then good. That means you have a piece or two to sac back and polish it off neatly and creatively.

Just enjoy yourself and the game instead of sitting there admiring the size of your testicles.

I've seen 100's, yes 100's of 'won' games lost or stalemated. A lot can be put down to the winning player
feeling insulted. (...insulted!!) their mind is not on the game, their playing ability is being discredited.
Clocks are thumped, after each move the player storms away from the board....
....they are having a mind tantrum and setting themselves up for a mighty cheapo.

And all these excuses about not wanting to lose under 20 moves or I did not want to drink alone...nonsense.

You do not need an excuse for not resigning. It is your game, if you are losing then you have the
privilege of determining when the game will end.

I seen dozens of games where the winning player resigned. (3 lads have resigned v me in OTB won positions.)
I've spun around that many 'lost games' that I actually fear getting a won game because I owe Cassia that much
in back pay " ....is this the game when she comes a knocking on my door."

Personally I resign when all hope of a trick or trap has gone. If I'm on the end of a mating combo
I usually let it run through to mate allowing the cutest variation possible. Or, have I have done
on a few occasions set up a sui-mate. This kind of thing.



As White you play Bxh7+, Kxh7, Rh3+ and Rh2.

My advice:

Never resign if you have a check in the position.

NickFaulks
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Re: When do you resign?

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:44 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote: whilst here, what on earth is a very strong FM.
I wondered that, then remembered.

https://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=4157770
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Geoff Chandler
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Re: When do you resign?

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:11 pm

Hi nick,

He's an Arbirer, he will know the rules.

You cannot force a player to resign and a player asking or telling a player to resign is an infringement of the Laws
and should be penalised by a default win awarded to the player whose train of thought has been oafishly interrupted
and who may not infact realise he is losing.

This is a stupid thread.

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Joshua Gibbs
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Re: When do you resign?

Post by Joshua Gibbs » Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:22 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
This is a stupid thread.
Hmm. I like Sally Simpson and find your game against RIchard Kynoch boss, so I won't be issuing a Fatwa on you.

I think knowing when to resign is important, so don't think this thread is stupid.
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Geoff Chandler
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Re: When do you resign?

Post by Geoff Chandler » Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:09 am

Hi Joshua,

"....knowing when to resign is important."

Important to who?

If Richard had resigned against me then I would never had got that pretty mate.

There are some players who play on and on and on because they think letting their opponent
eventually mate them is what their opponent wants to do and resigning is a form of bad sportsmanship. Sulking even.

It is the aim of the game. Checkmate. Few basic rules found tucked into chess sets mention resigning.

It is up to the player and the least one can do is let them decide when they have given up hope.

Never seen a lecture given by a coach on when to resign.

Until FIDE brings in a euthanasia rule when an arbiter can interrupt a game and declare it lost solely on the position
then the winning player must reply to a move played and stopped moaning because they think their opponent should resign.

There is more chance of FIDE bringing in a 'You must play till mate' rule (this idea was put forward without support a few years back.)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: When do you resign?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:09 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
There is more chance of FIDE bringing in a 'You must play till mate' rule (this idea was put forward without support a few years back.)
It was pointed out that someone who had better things to do than playing out a lost game, could just abandon the game, leaving the opponent to wait for the length of time remaining on the clock to formally win on time. That was the original reason why default times were introduced back in the Capablanca era, as without them, you would have to wait for the length of the first time control before the win could be claimed.

Martin Crichton
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Re: When do you resign?

Post by Martin Crichton » Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:43 am

well sometimes people resign prematurely (better than patzers that play on in the hope of getting a stalemate in completely lost positions...I usually try to get as many queens on the board in those rare scenarios)

last year I played a Central London league game against Nick Faulks and the position looked superficially better for me and I had the winning chances although I assessed correctly at the time that with correct play the position was equal. However Nick resigned and I accepted his resignation. When I went home and plugged the game into the computer the final assessment for the position when Nick resigned was 0.00

don't currently have any chess software on my new pc or a record of the game ... perhaps Nick does?
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NickFaulks
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Re: When do you resign?

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:15 pm

Martin Crichton wrote: When I went home and plugged the game into the computer the final assessment for the position when Nick resigned was 0.00
I do generally keep my game scores, but actually remember throwing that one in the bin at the playing venue. In a difficult position I realised that further defence was possible, but felt it had not been a well played game and just wanted to end it and head for a beer. Not good behaviour, I accept, but in some mitigation the match result was already decided.

I wish I had kept the game, because I remember that I got an unpleasant position from an opening I thought I knew something about, and of course now have no idea how that happened. It's a good thing i don't play chess for a living.
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