Rook verses 2 minor pieces exchange (pawn may also be thrown in)

[Kevin O'Rourke]

Rook verses 2 minor pieces exchange (pawn may also be thrown in)

I’ve heard it’s generally not a good idea to lose your own 2 minor pieces in exchange for a rook and pawn in the early stages of the game. From white’s point of view, this usually happens if a bishop and Knight point at f7 via c4 and g5 on a black castled king. In friendly fast games on the internet I have sometimes taken on f7 just to have a different game (still lots to learn) and it can weaken the king a little. Major disadvantage is that you have one less piece than your opponent and no space but perhaps some good long term chances?

Which side would you prefer to play if given the choice?

[Tim Harding]

Rook verses 2 minor pieces exchange (pawn may also be thrown in)

I’ve heard it’s generally not a good idea to lose your own 2 minor pieces in exchange for a rook and pawn in the early stages of the game. From white’s point of view, this usually happens if a bishop and Knight point at f7 via c4 and g5 on a black castled king. In friendly fast games on the internet I have sometimes taken on f7 just to have a different game (still lots to learn) and it can weaken the king a little. Major disadvantage is that you have one less piece than your opponent and no space but perhaps some good long term chances?

Which side would you prefer to play if given the choice?

No simple answer. A whole book was written on this (by Esben Lund for Quality Chess) but it's out of print.
One of his main points was that the player who has the two rooks should try to exchange the opponent's only rook.

A lot depends on what other pieces are on the board, king safety, open lines and chances to generate immediate threats.
In general B+N v R+P is roughly equal; it will tend to favour the minor pieces in the middle game and the rook in the ending if it can get among opposing pawns.
Any two minor pieces will almost always be better than R if it has no extra pawns.
Two bishops in an open position are likely to be better than rook and two pawns.

As a rough rule of thumb, you should prefer to have the minor pieces.

[Geoff Chandler]

Hi Kevin,

It all depends on what colour you are.

I know what you are thinking: "Chandler and his jokes...he's an idiot."


A while back I ran R v B & N endings through my Informator 1-99 database.

These games by GM''s and IM's should give an indication. The search produced 487 decisive games.

Result:

White has the Rook.

White Wins 118
Draws 39
Black Wins 87

This give to the nod to the Rook.

White has the Bishop and Knight

White Wins 119
Draws 58
Black Wins 66

This gives the nod to the Bishop and Knight.

Hmmm.... Back were we started.

Add them together

Rook Wins = 184
Draws =97
Bishop and Knight Wins = 206

The Bishop and Knight by a whisker.

Tim is correct a lot depends on what else is happening in the position
(and to a large extent who you are playing.)

Of course the pawns matter. I never used a pawn plus of minus search.
I'm saving that moment for when I have given up all hope of living.

The Rule of Thumb favours the Bishop and Knight. (and what colour you are!)

---

Hi Tim,

I get a load of emails, messages etc..etc thanking me for my 'Red Hot Pawn Hall of Doom' section.

I of course got the idea from your 'Black Museum' in the 'Startling Correspondence Miniatures'

So thank you for that.

Infact I get all my ideas from other people.

Even my name was given to me, I did not choose it.

But I'm glad I'm called Geoff. By coincidence It's everyone else calls me.

[MartinCarpenter]

There's a wonderful illustration of this stuff in Marin's learn from the legends. First a chapter with various games Tal won with rook vs 2 minors, then a chapter with Petrosian sacrificing exchanges and winning with one piece against a rook.

Its a hard game

[Christopher Kreuzer]

I recently lost a game where an opponent sacrificed two pieces for a rook and two pawns. It does depend very much on the position and how accurately (or poorly) you play after the sacrifice.

[Tim Harding]

I recently lost a game where an opponent sacrificed two pieces for a rook and two pawns. It does depend very much on the position and how accurately (or poorly) you play after the sacrifice.

To use the word sacrifice in this context is misleading, I think.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

I recently lost a game where an opponent sacrificed two pieces for a rook and two pawns. It does depend very much on the position and how accurately (or poorly) you play after the sacrifice.

To use the word sacrifice in this context is misleading, I think.

True. Maybe "played a combination giving up two pieces for a rook and two pawns" is a better phrase.It wasn't winning, as it was only subsequent poor play by me that led to the loss. Quite what the assessment should be, I am not sure.

Here is the position immediately after White took the second pawn on c7 after exchanging on f7.

r5k1/pbRn1qpp/1p6/8/3Pp3/4P3/PP2QPPP/3R2K1

Black to move. I played Bd5 instead of the (better) Qd5.

[Roger de Coverly]

Here is the position immediately after White took the second pawn on c7 after exchanging on f7.

r5k1/pbRn1qpp/1p6/8/3Pp3/4P3/PP2QPPP/3R2K1

With the possibility of parking all three major pieces on the c file, I'd say White was better and it's for Black to demonstrate counter play and thus equality.

[MartinCarpenter]

Where ever is the c file going though? I guess that the probably pending Q swap might be a problem for black in coordinating his pieces.

[Roger de Coverly]

Where ever is the c file going though?

Nowhere in particular, it's simply that White retains control of the position. For two pieces to fight effectively against a Rook and a pawn majority they have to be able to coordinate and restrict the activity of the Rook(s). It's two Rooks and a Queen plus a couple of extra pawns against a Queen, Rook, Bishop and Knight.

[Roger de Coverly]

Here's one of mine from 1970 (!). (I was White)

[FEN "r3nrk1/pb1qn1b1/1p1p3p/1N1Pp1pP/P1N1PpP1/5P2/1P2BB2/R2Q1RK1 w - - 1 24"]

Modern engines don't think the Bxb6 idea is bad, but prefer other moves to retain a White advantage. At the time, I regarded "bad" Bishops as a greater disadvantage than I might today. It's illustrated in the game, where Black gets .. e4 in and the Bg7 takes the Rook on a1. Fortunately Black was busted at the time (to use a technical expression from RJF).

Rather elegantly, I "mate" his Queen with my own "bad" Bishop.

White to move

[FEN "q1r4k/1BP5/1Q1p3p/P2n2pP/4ppP1/5P1K/8/b1R5 w - - 2 42"]


1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Be2 e5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.d5 Ne7 8.Be3 Ng4 9.Bg5 f5 10.Nd2 Nf6 11.f3 Nh5 12.g3 h6 13.Be3 f4 14.Bf2 O-O 15.g4 Nf6 16.c5 Nh7 17.h4 g5 18.h5 Nf6 19.Nc4 b6 20.cxd6 cxd6 21.Nb5 Ne8 22.O-O Bb7 23.a4 Qd7 24.Bxb6 axb6 25.Nxb6 Qd8 26.Nxa8 Bxa8 27.a5 Nc7 28.Qc2 Na6 29.Rfc1 Qd7 30.Nc7 Nc5 31.b4 Qxc7 32.bxc5 Qa7 33.Kg2 Rc8 34.c6 Kh8 35.c7 Bxd5 36.exd5 Nxd5 37.Qc6 Ne3+ 38.Kh3 e4 39.Qb6 Qa8 40.Ba6 Bxa1 41.Bb7 Nd5 42.Bxa8 Nxb6 43.axb6 1-0