New broadcast model for World Championship Match

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Chris Rice
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Re: New broadcast model for World Championship Match

Post by Chris Rice » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:12 pm

I'm guessing if anyone tried that online Geoff they would be met with an amended version of Rule 8 of the Visitor's Rules:

"8. By buying the ticket and/or entering the venue of the Match you expressly agree that information about chess moves of the Match is expensive to produce and gather and time-sensitive and that uncontrolled copying of this information during the respective chess game may reduce the incentive of the organizer to stage similar events in the Future. You further agree not to communicate any information concerning the chess moves of the Match during such games by any means to any party outside of the Match venue. You agree that your retransmission of information about chess moves of the games in violation of this paragraph is likely to cause immediate irreparable harm to organizer that will not be fully compensable by money damages, and therefore you agree that organizer shall be entitled to immediate injunctive relief to restrain any such violation."

https://worldchess.com/nyc2016/visitor-rules/

Geoff Chandler
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Re: New broadcast model for World Championship Match

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:55 pm

Hi Chris,

My tender pint is that how can 19.h5 be copyright?

How about if I do not give the names, dates and place of the 2016 match
and one day start transmitting without a page heading.

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 etc..

No analysis, no commentary just the moves of a chess game.
These bare moves. 19.h5, 26.Nxg6, 33.Kb1 which have been played
in other games possibly in the last century and beyond are not copyright
they are in the public domain.

I'm all in favour of companies like Agon making a buck out of chess provided it some of it goes back to the players concerned.

We (the punters) might feel aggrieved but it's the players who have been getting diddled for years.

Henry H. Hughes plays a masterpiece, a truly great game that enables him to win £200 first prize.
(he also gets the £30 brilliancy prize). That is it.

(in a more drastic example Henry's game is a one off and all he gets is 1 point and a few grading points.)

I take the game I never played. Note it up in a book and get royalties for the rest of my life
and I am not obliged in any way to pay Henry H. Hughes one penny.

That is wrong.

Chris Rice
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Re: New broadcast model for World Championship Match

Post by Chris Rice » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:52 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Hi Chris,...

...I'm all in favour of companies like Agon making a buck out of chess provided it some of it goes back to the players concerned.
Cheers Geoff, Agon have made a point multiple times that they intend to plough money back into chess. I would hope they could provide some substantive evidence to back up that assertion, especially if they end up making a mint off this WC match. Up to now all they appear to have done is make losses which they are blaming primarily on these pesky chess websites. I'm not sure whether the para I quoted previously from the Visitor's rules was a legal nicety or an attempt to make the chess websites feel bad if they don't behave.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: New broadcast model for World Championship Match

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:41 pm

Chris Rice wrote:I'm not sure whether the para I quoted previously from the Visitor's rules was a legal nicety or an attempt to make the chess websites feel bad if they don't behave.
I read it as an attempt to prevent the discussion of the games whilst they are in progress.

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Carl Hibbard
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Re: New broadcast model for World Championship Match

Post by Carl Hibbard » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:43 pm

Any of the big sites suggested what they are going to do yet?
Cheers
Carl Hibbard

Kevin O'Rourke
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Re: New broadcast model for World Championship Match

Post by Kevin O'Rourke » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:50 pm

bring back channel 4 coverage. Maybe if we get a british challenger one year?

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JustinHorton
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Re: New broadcast model for World Championship Match

Post by JustinHorton » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:38 pm

Carl Hibbard wrote:Any of the big sites suggested what they are going to do yet?
I thought Peter Doggers' piece was interestinfly cagey in this respect.
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Andrew Murray-Watson
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Re: New broadcast model for World Championship Match

Post by Andrew Murray-Watson » Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:24 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Andrew Murray-Watson wrote: As far as the legal action is concerned - as you can appreciate these cases take a while to reach court, but the action taken against websites that commenced at the Candidates are ongoing and nearing a court date.
In which jurisdiction?
Russia. But through reciprocal international trade and legal agreements, verdicts are enforceable in most countries.

Andrew Murray-Watson
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Re: New broadcast model for World Championship Match

Post by Andrew Murray-Watson » Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:26 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
JustinHorton wrote: Ah
With Agon attempting to ban discussion of the games whilst they are in progress, how are the "hundreds of millions" whose preferred language is not supported by the Agon commentary supposed to follow the match?

There's certainly an audience for top class chess and it can be large enough to crash inadequately resourced websites. A more realistic method of counting it is long overdue. Basing it on the answers to a question asking "when did you last play chess" in a limited number of countries and extrapolating that to the world isn't a reliable method.
The plan is to have commentary in more than one language. We are not attempting to ban discussion of games whist they are in progress.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: New broadcast model for World Championship Match

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:03 pm

Andrew Murray-Watson wrote: The plan is to have commentary in more than one language. We are not attempting to ban discussion of games whist they are in progress.
The usual approach on this forum to commenting on games whilst they are in progress is to quote the moves so far, the current position and then your thoughts. The point is that if someone reads it weeks later, the discussion is placed in context.

Earlier this year, your man Dylan seemed to think this would have infringed the terms of the licence Agon were trying to enforce and the extracts from the current press release seem to continue to confirm this.

Otherwise please explain how this paragraph is meant to be interpreted.
You agree that your retransmission of information about chess moves of the games in violation of this paragraph is likely to cause immediate irreparable harm to organizer that will not be fully compensable by money damages, and therefore you agree that organizer shall be entitled to immediate injunctive relief to restrain any such violation."
Last edited by Roger de Coverly on Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Richard Bates
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Re: New broadcast model for World Championship Match

Post by Richard Bates » Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:14 pm

Perhaps a couple of forumites with time on their hands could play a game against each other whilst many people are opting to not watch the main match. It's long established that World championship matches are often trend setting for games played at the level of the average club player so I suppose there might even be some level of overlap between the two. Although if the forum game is a brilliancy I suppose we might have to mark it down if it turns out that it's all been played before.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: New broadcast model for World Championship Match

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:56 am

Hi Roger,

"The usual approach on this forum to commenting on games whilst they are in progress
is to quote the moves so far, the current position and then your thoughts."

...er.....no.

The usual approach here, especially when there are multiple games on the go
is a one move comment 'Bxf6 looks good' no move number, no diagrams and sometimes no names!!

These pop up in between some gibberish about so and so looking good and he played this line last year
or 'David is having a good tournament' David who? David Hughes the great grandson of Howard H. Hughes.

'....your thoughts'. Delete that bit ' and insert 'your computer analysis.'

Did you yourself not start a thread a while back about why bother showing live games.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: New broadcast model for World Championship Match

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:44 am

Geoff Chandler wrote: The usual approach here, especially when there are multiple games on the go
is a one move comment 'Bxf6 looks good' no move number, no diagrams and sometimes no names!!
You have been critical of this aspect in the past. Given how straightforward it is to add a diagram, provided you have a pgn feed, I would invariably add one.

Agon, if they allow comments at all, would like to see one move comments without context mandatory.

The basic model for live broadcasting was established in the 1970s, which is a text listing in algebraic of the moves played, updated in real time. Attempts by Agon to break this should be firmly opposed. That the moves of chess games are a record of facts is historically established. It's something that has to be lived with like VAT on turnover, however much an individual or organisation might wish to defy it.

Angus French
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Re: New broadcast model for World Championship Match

Post by Angus French » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:05 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Andrew Murray-Watson wrote: The plan is to have commentary in more than one language. We are not attempting to ban discussion of games whist they are in progress.
The usual approach on this forum to commenting on games whilst they are in progress is to quote the moves so far, the current position and then your thoughts. The point is that if someone reads it weeks later, the discussion is placed in context.
Good point. I think it would be really useful (at least for this forum and Twitter chat) if Andrew M-W could say whether what Roger describes would be permitted.

Tryfon Gavriel
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Re: New broadcast model for World Championship Match

Post by Tryfon Gavriel » Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:56 pm

Hi all

I must say I find the entire thing disappointing with Agon (edit not Aegon - a retirement planning company! :) ). They seem to think they are Amazon and providing Widgets just like Amazon for giving a 10% commission. I mean seriously - how many chess websites even link to Amazon for chess books?! It is a lot of hassle for very little gain.

Why would any decent popular website like Chess24 want to passify themselves to accept a Widget with T&C attached. It seems totally absurd. How will Agon translate into all the needed languages?! It is is if they are not allowing the event to be celebrated, communicated, discussed etc.

As far as previous World championships, I am sure even Youtubers like myself with my friends streaming live with permission from ICC helped popularise the event to people with just a passing interest in chess. Will Youtubers or Twich streamers be sued for relaying from any of the sites that are relaying?! How does that work?! Say I wanted to do a relay from some commercial site who ignores Agon - would I be sued as well?! Would a relay of a relay be sued?! Does anyone know about that?!

Cheers, Tryfon
Last edited by Tryfon Gavriel on Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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