English Chess Forum

This happened to Svidler at the European club cup today. It caught my attention, partly because it was a mini-upset of a well know player against a 2500 IM. But mainly because I gave a few minutes thought to buying this book: https://www.newinchess.com/The_Zaitsev_ ... -9036.html at the weekend.

It is probably a good book, but this sort of forced draw really puts me off openings, and probably the main reason I didn't buy the book. Do other people feel the same? Or do you take the view that it is up to white to avoid such things?

1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 O-O Be7 6 Re1 b5 7 Bb3 d6 8 c3 O-O 9 h3 Re8 10 d4 Bb7 11 Ng5 Rf8 12 Nf3 Re8 13 Ng5 Rf8 14 Nf3 Re8 15 Ng5

Paul Cooksey wrote: Or do you take the view that it is up to white to avoid such things?

The wisdom that .. Re8 is Black's only move is stretching it too far. Other normal Spanish moves such as .. Na5, .. h6, .. Nd7, .. exd4 remain available. If engines score .. Re8 best, it's only by around a tenth of a pawn.

The book mentioned appears to recommend lines on how to avoid the repetition.

Paul Cooksey wrote:It is probably a good book, but this sort of forced draw really puts me off openings, and probably the main reason I didn't buy the book. Do other people feel the same? Or do you take the view that it is up to white to avoid such things?

I'm puzzled.
1) I thought Svidler was black?
2) Why is he forced to keep on playing Re8? Why not h6? [Edit: Ah, I see Roger has made the same point]
3) How is it possible that a 7-time Russian champion is so "dumb" as to fall for such a line? Surely if I, with a rating that is almost 4 figures lower than his, can avoid drawish lines against weaker opponents so can he? Perhaps he has to get away quickly for Chess 24 commentating duties?

Black or White can avoid the draw if they want to.
Perhaps a good reason? Something better to do?

Roger de Coverly wrote:Other normal Spanish moves such as .. Na5, .. h6, .. Nd7, .. exd4 remain available. If engines score .. Re8 best, it's only by around a tenth of a pawn.

The book mentioned appears to recommend lines on how to avoid the repetition.

From the late 80s onwards I played the Zaitsev for over a decade - most of that time it was my only defence to 1e4. I was inspired by Karpov’s games against Gazza (even though he lost most of critical ones) and Short’s adoption of the opening in Candidates’ matches.

I didn’t once have a somebody take the draw against me. Of course I had the advantage that

1. It was pre-database era so nobody would have known it was coming
2. I played mostly club chess during that period so I was unlikely to face a 'must win with black in the last round' scenario

and most of

3. nobody would consider a draw against me a sufficiently big achievement to be worth taking.


Chess very different now, of course, but still I suspect most club players could play the opening successfully without problems. You could take the view, for instance, that even if you did give up a draw you wouldn’t have chosen to every 10, 15 or 20 games (or whatever) it would be a price worth paying to play what is otherwise a rather attractive opening.

My main concern taking up the opening again wouldn’t be the possibility of the forced draw but the increased popularity of d3 on move 5 and 6 meaning I wouldn’t get to play my system in the first place.



Svidler knew what he was doing, of course. Him allowing the possibility of a forced draw is only surprising until you start to think about what he had to gain by playing for a win.

Jonathan Bryant wrote:the increased popularity of d3 on move 5 and 6 meaning I wouldn’t get to play my system in the first place.

I realised when trying to work out how to play against d3 systems that in the "named" defences, you play moves not because you want to, but because you have to. Once White plays d4, there is a threat to win the pawn on e5 if the c6 Knight goes elsewhere. You can first defend the e pawn with .. Re8 and .. Bf8, but then you are vulnerable to Ng5 hits. Hence the .. h6 of the Smyslov. The oldest system of the lot, the Chigorin, is logical. You get .. Na5 in before d4 is played to enable you to chase the Bishop. Then play .. c5 so as to defend the e5 pawn with .. Qc7. Particularly in the Zaitsev, you don't try to defend the e5 pawn, rather you play .. exd4. This has the advantage that if White later plays d5, you are defending a Modern Benoni like structure with potential play down the h8 to a1 diagonal, rather than an Old Benoni where you are solid, but have little active play and piece congestion.

"How is it possible that a 7-time Russian champion is so "dumb" as to fall for such a line?"

Svidler has had the same well known draw before in:

A. Lastin - P. Svidler Russian Super Finals 2008.

Geoff Chandler wrote:"How is it possible that a 7-time Russian champion is so "dumb" as to fall for such a line?"

Svidler has had the same well known draw before in:

A. Lastin - P. Svidler Russian Super Finals 2008.

Karpov had it a dozen or more times, of course. I think at least three against Robert Huebner alone if memory serves. I collected them all in one post, I think, but I can’t find it now.


Anatoly was the immediate draw King. He had another immediate draw in a different line of the Spanish and Our Nige once went for an immediate draw in the 3 Bc4 Bc5, 4 c3 Nf6, 5 d4 open game.

Jonathan Bryant wrote:Our Nige once went for an immediate draw in the 3 Bc4 Bc5, 4 c3 Nf6, 5 d4 open game.

That's the one that goes

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4 7. Bd2 Bxd2 8. Nbxd2 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Qb3 Na5 11. Qa4 Nc6 12. Qb3

At the cost of what the engine considers 20% of a pawn, you can continue the game, as Black, with Nce7.

Hi Jonathan,

I found 8 games draws with this line with Karpov as Black. Three v Huebner.


Huebner - Karpov, 1982

Huebner - Karpov, 1986

Huebner - Karpov, 1988

A Sokolov - Karpov, 1987

Ljubojevic - Karpov, 1987

Smyslov - Karpov, 1988

Nunn - Karpov, 1989

DeFirmian - Karpov, 1989

I recall Jim Plaskett mentioning AK's fondness for that draw somewhat disparagingly at the start of one of his books.

Tournament situation probably has a lot to do with these decisions.
Svidler is not likely to be concerned about dropping 3 rating points at this stage of his career. On his last move he spent 19 minutes before allowing the repetition so he probably consulted his team captain who advised him to allow it. The team won comfortably.

McShane-Nakamura in last year's Millionaire Chess also comes to mind (Najdorf 6 Be3 Ng4 7 Bc1 Nf6 8 Be3 etc.)

Another non-game seen quite a few times is in the Slav: 1 d4 d5 2 Nf3 Nf6 3 c4 c6 4 Nc3 dxc4 5 a4 Bf5 6 Nh4 Bc8 7 Nf3 Bf5 8 Nh4 etc.

I don't think "theoretical draw" is the right term for this sort of thing because the draw is by no means forced.

Another well known example is that from Barendregt Variation, Alapin Gambit (6...h5) of the Exchange Ruy Lopez.

There is a pair of sisters who routinely go through the motions with this line whenever they are paired.

Geoff Chandler wrote:Hi Jonathan,

I found 8 games draws with this line with Karpov as Black. Three v Huebner.

There’s also games against Chandler and Nunn at Vienna in 1986.

There was a game with van der Wiel which was a five-fold repeat with neither player claiming the draw for some reason. Karpov then varied (... Na5 if memory serves) and the game was later drawn anyway.


The Plaskett book was Playing to Win. At the start of his Best Games section he observes that Karpov had played the Zaitsev three times (in fact an underestimation even at the time the book was published, but of course we have databases now and he didn’t then) and ponders whether chess is worth playing if that was a strategy that a world champion had to employ.



Justin reminds me the post was on chess pub (not a blog post as I’d thought).
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/chess/Y ... 4341%2Fall

In this thread Tony Kosten talks about allowing this draw and the circumstances in which he did so.

Roger de Coverly wrote:

Jonathan Bryant wrote:Our Nige once went for an immediate draw in the 3 Bc4 Bc5, 4 c3 Nf6, 5 d4 open game.

That's the one that goes ...

That’s the chap. Here’s the other Spanish draw Anatoli had in his locker. Game played in the same tournament as the Nigel Short game, amusingly.

[Event "Skelleftea WCup ;CBM 14"] [Site "Skelleftea SWE"] [Date "1989.08.??"] [EventDate "?"] [Round "1"] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [White "Gyula Sax"] [Black "Anatoly Karpov"] [ECO "C92"] [WhiteElo "?"] [BlackElo "?"] [PlyCount "37"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8. c3 O-O 9. h3 Nd7 10. d4 Bf6 11. a4 Rb8 12. axb5 axb5 13. Be3 Ne7 14. Ng5 h6 15. Bxf7+ Rxf7 16. Ne6 Qe8 17. Nxc7 Qd8 18. Ne6 Qe8 19. Nc7 1/2-1/2