Low graded players teaching chess

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.

Do you think one should be ECF 150 above and do an exam before teaching with chess in schools?

Yes
8
20%
No
30
75%
Yes but higher rating
0
No votes
no but lower rating (please comment)
2
5%
 
Total votes: 40

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Joshua Gibbs
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Re: Low graded players teaching chess

Post by Joshua Gibbs » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:27 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:Openings are important, but they aren't urgent: the level at which improving your openings starts making a major difference to your results tends to be quite a high one.
I agree with you for overall results over a long period, but my opening knowledge helped me beat an ICCF Grandmaster in an online simul - I was so happy my friends thought I was on cocaine!

They also helped me bat above my level in league chess. I greatly enjoyed both these experiences and couldnt have had them with out expert opening study!!

I think as Roger says dogmatically teaching opening principles could be very bad for beginners! Susan Polgar agrees me that my QA5 line against the Alapin is sound, but I know someone who teaches with Chess in schools who would tell kids not to play it because you move the queen twice and I think this is wrong and should be stopped.

Notably the votes are equal now... It seems people agree with me but don't want to voice their opinions.
Last edited by Joshua Gibbs on Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joshua Gibbs
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Re: Low graded players teaching chess

Post by Joshua Gibbs » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:29 pm

chrisbeckett wrote: I'd have thought opening knowledge wouldn't really come into it as opposed to general principles like not bringing your Queen out early and getting castled etc.
Sorry I replied to Jack first I like his avatar

Dogmatically advising beginners not to bring the queen out early isnt good imho
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David Williams
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Re: Low graded players teaching chess

Post by David Williams » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:30 pm

http://www.ecforum.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8594
Joshua Gibbs wrote:I like teaching people things and want to teach chess.

I know people who teach chess who I think are nowhere near good enough to make children or adults sandwiches, let alone teach them chess. These people don't know anything about the game, and the people "learning" will actually suffer from their input.

Having said that some of the better players on here might argue that someone with an ECF grade of 100 (myself) should not be teaching people!

What is everyone elses opinon on this?

My personal opinion is that my online accomplishments make me good enough to teach some elements of chess though there are certain elements I shouldn't teach and that you should beat some good players and be around ECF 150 to teach...
An alternative point of view.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Low graded players teaching chess

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:51 pm

Joshua Gibbs wrote: Susan Polgar agrees me that my QA5 line against the Alapin is sound, but I know someone who teaches with Chess in schools who would tell kids not to play it because you move the queen twice and I think this is wrong and should be stopped.
Do you mean the line 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Qa5 ? I suppose it's only a little worse than the regular responses of 2. .. d5 and .. 2. .. Nf6 .

The Trompovsky is good for "breaking" opening principles. There's an old main line that went 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 Ne4 3. Bf4 c5 4. f3 Qa5+ 5. c3 Nf6 6. d5 Qb6 7. Bc1 . In seven moves Black has developed the Queen and a Knight whilst White has in effect only made pawn moves.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Low graded players teaching chess

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:53 pm

There are few enough people willing to teach chess, often for free, without putting restrictions in the way. Apart from that, it's not simply a question of chess strength as measured by grading - although, as a rough rule of thumb, I'd suggest than a minimum grading difference of say 25 ECF points between teacher and taught is desirable. But ability to communicate is just as important, together with experience - we have 9-year-olds at our club rated 25+ points higher than the gentleman who initiated this thread but I'm not sure they would have had the experience to teach him successfully.

chrisbeckett
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Re: Low graded players teaching chess

Post by chrisbeckett » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:54 pm

Joshua Gibbs wrote:
chrisbeckett wrote: I'd have thought opening knowledge wouldn't really come into it as opposed to general principles like not bringing your Queen out early and getting castled etc.
Sorry I replied to Jack first I like his avatar

Dogmatically advising beginners not to bring the queen out early isnt good imho
No problem, but at the age range we're (I think) talking about it's not a case of being dogmatic. Children are pretty flexible and it's best to show them general guiding rules until they get to a stage, ie past beginner level, where you can show them when they can/should be broken.

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Joshua Gibbs
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Re: Low graded players teaching chess

Post by Joshua Gibbs » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:59 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Do you mean the line 1. e4 c5 2. c3 Qa5 ? I suppose it's only a little worse than the regular responses of 2. .. d5 and .. 2. .. Nf6 .

The Trompovsky is good for "breaking" opening principles. There's an old main line that went 1. d4 Nf6 2. Bg5 Ne4 3. Bf4 c5 4. f3 Qa5+ 5. c3 Nf6 6. d5 Qb6 7. Bc1 . In seven moves Black has developed the Queen and a Knight whilst White has in effect only made pawn moves.
Yeah I mean that line - Polgar told me it was sound as a suprise weapon! I agree with you about the Tromp
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Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Low graded players teaching chess

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:24 pm

Joshua Gibbs wrote:but I know someone who teaches with Chess in schools who would tell kids not to play it because you move the queen twice and I think this is wrong and should be stopped.
Then perhaps you should be raising your concerns with CSC directly. Of course, if they taught you some years ago, it is possible that they may have increased their own knowledge in addition to CSC providing a proper curriculum to work to.

I know that there are plenty of strong players who were taught as children by players rated lower than 150ECF. The blanket ban you seem to be demanding would achieve nothing except closing down a lot of school and junior chess clubs and preventing a lot of chess from being played. Thankfully that is unlikely to happen.
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Joshua Gibbs
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Re: Low graded players teaching chess

Post by Joshua Gibbs » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:30 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Joshua Gibbs wrote:but I know someone who teaches with Chess in schools who would tell kids not to play it because you move the queen twice and I think this is wrong and should be stopped.
Then perhaps you should be raising your concerns with CSC directly. Of course, if they taught you some years ago, it is possible that they may have increased their own knowledge in addition to CSC providing a proper curriculum to work to.

I know that there are plenty of strong players who were taught as children by players rated lower than 150ECF. The blanket ban you seem to be demanding would achieve nothing except closing down a lot of school and junior chess clubs and preventing a lot of chess from being played. Thankfully that is unlikely to happen.
I am not demanding a blanket ban, I am canvassing opinion from my peers.... Its interesting to see the poll.

I never learnt chess as a child but I have school reports to say I was usless at languages and proof of pay from Workplace translation in Leeds for translation work. I think there are a lot of incompetent teachers in all fields and they need rooting out.
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Nick Grey
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Re: Low graded players teaching chess

Post by Nick Grey » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:24 am

Looks like a resounding no.
Must admit that you seem to think schools is where they learn most is not in the first instance. Tends to be a relative.

Having a nephew who will be 6 in a few months he received a Christmas present from me "Chess for Children". Fantastic work by admittedly strong players. His parents, & his grand parents were chuffed too. My brother says I got him that book from the library when I taught him. I said I cannot remember that version having an imaginary friend to learn from - a grand alligator. Thanks to those at Chess & Bridge at the stall at London Chess Classic.

Looking forward to teaching him & also him letting me know a few more insects/dinosaurs and their spelling.

Sorry but I wanted to become a teacher when I graduated but could not afford another year on a grant. So any "teaching" I have carried out has been voluntary youth work. Not sure why you have got a gripe about teaching chess - it's not as if it is on the national curriculum.

I have personally learned a lot more about chess from those that are significantly weaker than myself than those that are stronger than myself.

Nick Grey
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Re: Low graded players teaching chess

Post by Nick Grey » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:33 am

I look forward to playing you if playing ...Qa5 in the Alapin Sicilian.
If it was that good Susan would have played it herself.
Those authors I mentioned also know quite a bit about the c3 Sicilian.

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Joshua Gibbs
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Re: Low graded players teaching chess

Post by Joshua Gibbs » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:44 am

Nick Grey wrote:I look forward to playing you if playing ...Qa5 in the Alapin Sicilian.
If it was that good Susan would have played it herself.
Those authors I mentioned also know quite a bit about the c3 Sicilian.
ready when you are

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Trefor Owens
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Re: Low graded players teaching chess

Post by Trefor Owens » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:07 pm

Joshua Gibbs wrote:I know several low graded (below 100) who are teaching for chess in schools and frankly I think its disgusting as they misinform kids who are too young to discard the nonsense which comes out of their mouths.

I have passed translation agency tests with the best agencies in the world despite idiot teachers telling me I was useless from 8-22 and run a successful business/charity and am disgusted to see similar people "teaching" chess.

My personal belief is that people should be or have been graded 150 ecf and pass an exam before teaching: what does everyone else think?
My personal belief is that people should be or have been graded 150 ecf and pass an exam before debating teaching: what does everyone else think?

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Low graded players teaching chess

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:01 pm

Nick Grey wrote: My brother says I got him that book from the library when I taught him. I said I cannot remember that version having an imaginary friend to learn from - a grand alligator. Thanks to those at Chess & Bridge at the stall at London Chess Classic.
I suspect the book you got your brother all those years ago is another book entitled Chess For Children (which has no connection with the current book often seen at Congress book stalls). I remember that book well; I discovered it in a bookcase when I was about nine and unable to sleep and promptly learnt the basics of chess overnight (although for several reasons it would be a few years before I started playing properly). It's a very readable primer for young players.

That said it contains the following slightly inaccurate advice; `If you are white, always open e2-e4. If you are black always open e7-e5 unless your opponent players d2-d4 in which case open d7-d5`. It did take me a few years to unteach myself that.

My nephew will be four this summer. Sooner or later I should buy him his first chess book.
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LawrenceCooper
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Re: Low graded players teaching chess

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Jan 08, 2017 2:07 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:That said it contains the following slightly inaccurate advice; `If you are white, always open e2-e4. If you are black always open e7-e5 unless your opponent players d2-d4 in which case open d7-d5`. It did take me a few years to unteach myself that.
It's also unwise against Nf3 :lol:

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