Swiss Manager - Help Needed

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Paul McKeown
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Re: Swiss Manager - Help Needed

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:31 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Paul McKeown wrote:There are other localisation issues I could suggest, such as the order for entering dates, which ought to be locale sensitive, or at least configurable.
You have to enter the date format in accordance with the relevant ISO format. Given the multitude of different formats a date could be written in, you can't really blame the programmer, or FIDE, for wanting dates submitted using the ISO format.
That answer reveals
a) that the application breaks Windows coding and user interface standards (which have existed for at least twenty years), making the programmer's own life difficult, as well as limiting the usability of the application
b) that Alex doesn't know how things should work, but is happy to defend crap functionality, rather than accept that there is something wrong
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Re: Swiss Manager - Help Needed

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:35 pm

Gerry_Jepps wrote:You could also have a look at Vega: http://www.vegachess.com/tl/index.php/H ... glish.html
It interfaces with the ECF list and outputs ECF grading files. It is also FIDE approved. The Linux version is free. The Windows version is free for tournaments of up to 30 players (so you can download it and try it without having to buy).
Installed and used that for a trial. Looks like a really good choice, with good, intuitive, user interface design, lots of useful and time-saving functionality, good flexibility in output.

Unfortunately, not the choice of our leading lights, so I'll have to struggle on and really master Swiss Mangler instead.
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Re: Swiss Manager - Help Needed

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:36 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:Please feel free to share this link

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bX4 ... sp=sharing
Thanks, Adam. Really useful!

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Re: Swiss Manager - Help Needed

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:37 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote: Just remember that the date needs to be in the ISO format and put it in. Yes, it's not the way we normally write a date in the UK, but in the grand scheme of things one has to worry about on a daily basis, who cares?
I would suspect "software design theory" would consider that a poor practice. By all means store dates internally in ISO format and as part of file design. For user input, you include a filter, so that if an input format of dd/mm/yyy or dd/mm/yyyy is the user's preference, the program accepts that as input and then translates.
You suspect right.

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Re: Swiss Manager - Help Needed

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:38 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote: Just remember that the date needs to be in the ISO format and put it in. Yes, it's not the way we normally write a date in the UK, but in the grand scheme of things one has to worry about on a daily basis, who cares?
I would suspect "software design theory" would consider that a poor practice. By all means store dates internally in ISO format and as part of file design. For user input, you include a filter, so that if an input format of dd/mm/yyy or dd/mm/yyyy is the user's preference, the program accepts that as input and then translates.
Good for them. Rather than grumble about it though, I'll just put it in the way it wants it, and move on with life. :)
Be happy wasting your time if you will.

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Re: Swiss Manager - Help Needed

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:38 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Paul McKeown wrote:There are other localisation issues I could suggest, such as the order for entering dates, which ought to be locale sensitive, or at least configurable.
You have to enter the date format in accordance with the relevant ISO format. Given the multitude of different formats a date could be written in, you can't really blame the programmer, or FIDE, for wanting dates submitted using the ISO format.
You might store it internally in ISO format; you might output it to other applications in ISO format. I can think of no good reason why a program should not accept input in the format defined in the (Windows) computer's regional settings if its been well written.
Exactly.

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Re: Swiss Manager - Help Needed

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:39 pm

Paul McKeown wrote:that Alex doesn't know how things should work, but is happy to defend crap functionality, rather than accept that there is something wrong
I think that actually my mindset is to just get on with doing what the software wants even if it's inconvenient, rather than complain about stuff. The former gets the tournament run, and the latter achieves nothing.

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Re: Swiss Manager - Help Needed

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:42 pm

Brian Towers wrote:Crucially Swiss Manager has a free associated website with automated uploading of the tournament to that website. A competitor like Vega will generate the web files for you but it is then up to you to upload them to your own website and do any plumbing in required.
Well, it is useful for getting the results published, when you don't have your own website, or your own organisation's website needs a total rewrite, but if you ultimately want to publish on your own site, you are either going to do a low integration iframe job, or you are going to have do the plumbing, anyway.
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Re: Swiss Manager - Help Needed

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:44 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Paul McKeown wrote:that Alex doesn't know how things should work, but is happy to defend crap functionality, rather than accept that there is something wrong
I think that actually my mindset is to just get on with doing what the software wants even if it's inconvenient, rather than complain about stuff. The former gets the tournament run, and the latter achieves nothing.
The former gets the job done inefficiently. The latter can result in:
a) learning
b) feedback
c) better IT selection policies
d) changes in established choices
e) functional improvement

Sorry, but your response is crap, amounts to sticking your fingers in your ears and is a poor example of leadership.

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Re: Swiss Manager - Help Needed

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:46 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:P.S. - if there is demand for a hands on class to walk people through the software, I can do this remotely via webinar or I can get a venue. I would charge a reasonable price. Email me at adamraoof@gmail.com
I would be happy to do either. If several other people were to agree, I would be happy to pay good money to pay your costs and time.

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Re: Swiss Manager - Help Needed

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:50 pm

I would be happier with the damned thing, if I could find a way to define my own output files, and process them myself in Excel, Crystal Reports, Access, MySql, or whatever. Then I could produce my own reports to the requirements I know I have. Or the ECF could produce them, and distribute them. It is typical of proprietary software that getting it do something it doesn't do is difficult, but it can make everyone's life easier by at least allowing people to access the data easily.

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Re: Swiss Manager - Help Needed

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:57 pm

One final pair of requests, for anyone reading, who knows the answer.

How do I keep my ECF grading list updated for SM?

I have a copy, but it is the previous list, and it covers only standard grades.

I require the current list, and I need both standard and rapid grades.

Where can I get the appropriate download?

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Re: Swiss Manager - Help Needed

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:15 pm

Paul McKeown wrote: Where can I get the appropriate download?
Isn't it where it's always been, at the ECF grading site?

http://www.ecfgrading.org.uk/files/grades201708.csv

is the latest version and there's a list of previous ones going back to 2011.

That may or may not require reformatting to import to tournament management program of your choice.

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Re: Swiss Manager - Help Needed

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:41 pm

Thanks, Roger. Is the file always http://www.ecfgrading.org.uk/files/grades[YYYY][MM].csv then?

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Re: Swiss Manager - Help Needed

Post by Paul McKeown » Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:42 pm

Still need to know:

How do I get Swiss Mangler to use the rapid grades, rather than the standard grades?

And the answer is helpfully given by Adam Raaof in his FAQ:
How do I import the ECF rapidplay grading list? <snip>

Create an .xls Excel spreadsheet with your players by downloading the ECF master list and deleting the columns that are unnecessary. There is a template on the SM site. The fields you need are as follows;

ID Number = ECF grading code
Name = Surname,First Name
Sex = m,f
Fed = ENG
Club Number = leave blank
Club Name = Hendon
Birthday = in the format yyyy/mm/dd
Rating National = ECF grade (rapid / standard)
FIDE No = FIN
Rating International = 2400
Title - g,m,f etc
K = leave blank

Now, when you create your tournament file, you can import this list.
As the ECF's arbiters seem to be standardising on Mangler, would it not be a useful service for the ECF to produce two appropriate downloads for Mangler?

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