Arbitration question

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1957
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: Arbitration question

Post by Michael Farthing » Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:51 pm

My memory of Dr Fazekas was as a 14 yr old working on the daily bulletin. Players (or others) could buy the daily bulletin and at the end of the fortnight have these daily pages, together with the summary pages and cover, stapled into a neat composite volume. Alternatively you could buy a complete mint edition at the end of the tournament. It was made very clear to us by the Powers that Were (Tony Gillam) that this was an either / or.

Dr Fazekas arrived at the sales desk waving his tattered and well-thumbed pages as evidence of his eligibility. I asked for the pages and began collating them with the summary pages. "Don't bother with that. Just give me one of those already made up" he demanded. I am proud that I replied with composure (not that I felt composed), "It's all right. I have your extra pages here ready". (Well, roughly what he and I said, as I recall after 53 years).

soheil_hooshdaran
Posts: 2978
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: Arbitration question

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:59 am

About arbitration of online tournaments, why not checking the list of tasks run by a suspect on his/her computer?

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 19018
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Arbitration question

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:02 am

soheil_hooshdaran wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:59 am
why not checking the list of tasks run by a suspect on his/her computer?
It's believe that some of the detection methods do this, to the extent that the privacy settings on the computer or browser allow it. It's not going to help if the in game consultation is with a separate device. For that matter someone might not be playing on a computer. Phones, tablets and e-boards are possible playing interfaces.

Wadih Khoury
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:14 pm

Re: Arbitration question

Post by Wadih Khoury » Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:12 am

Some tournaments require to share screens constantly with the arbiters. Ensures the individual does not cheat using his computer, but cannot prevent using another device.
Cameras can help deter this latter problem.

soheil_hooshdaran
Posts: 2978
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: Arbitration question

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:19 pm

A question about OTB arbitration:
There is some body language signals for lying, like fast eye blinking. Can you use these indicators to determine who is honest and who is lying, is cases like touch-move claims?

Tim Harding
Posts: 1917
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:46 pm
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Contact:

Re: Arbitration question

Post by Tim Harding » Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:37 pm

soheil_hooshdaran wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:19 pm
A question about OTB arbitration:
There is some body language signals for lying, like fast eye blinking. Can you use these indicators to determine who is honest and who is lying, is cases like touch-move claims?
Not unless you have a doctorate in behavioural psychology (and even then, No, I reckon)
Tim Harding
Historian and Kibitzer

Author of 'Steinitz in London,' British Chess Literature to 1914', 'Joseph Henry Blackburne: A Chess Biography', and 'Eminent Victorian Chess Players'
http://www.chessmail.com

Kevin Thurlow
Posts: 3825
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Arbitration question

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:11 pm

"There is some body language signals for lying, like fast eye blinking. Can you use these indicators to determine who is honest and who is lying, is cases like touch-move claims?"

That is a very good question. I suspect Tim is right. Bear in mind that the person is likely to be stressed, so might react as if they're lying, because they are concerned by the incident. They might even feel threatened merely by the "confrontation" of someone asking them questions. You will need something less subtle...

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 19018
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Arbitration question

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Aug 09, 2020 4:22 pm

soheil_hooshdaran wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 3:19 pm
Can you use these indicators to determine who is honest and who is lying, is cases like touch-move claims?
If you get a lot of these, perhaps it would be worthwhile trying to get players to avoid picking up a piece and hovering over the board. In other words persuade them that the norm is to decide the move, then make it decisively.

Stewart Reuben
Posts: 4176
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: writer

Re: Arbitration question

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:48 pm

As a retired professional poker player, there were indeed 'tells' that one could observe. But never with enough certainty to convince a court of law.
e.g. the fast eye blinking. The player knows you are observing him. So he tells the truth and blinks his eyes. The arbiter questions what the player has said and establishes that he was speaking the truth. But, in fact, he lied somewhere in a different situation.

soheil_hooshdaran
Posts: 2978
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: Arbitration question

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:22 am

So a chess arbiter cannot use these tells?

Wadih Khoury
Posts: 149
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2020 8:14 pm

Re: Arbitration question

Post by Wadih Khoury » Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:23 am

I would assume that either the science behind these tells is very flimsy, or the rate of false positives/false negatives is such that you could not use it.

Stewart Reuben
Posts: 4176
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: writer

Re: Arbitration question

Post by Stewart Reuben » Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:25 pm

SOHEIL .So a chess arbiter cannot use these tells?

If, as an arbiter, you accuse somebody of cheating, then you are treading on very dangerous ground, if your evidence is solely body language. It may be sufficient however to use a wand to establish whether somebody has an electronic device on them. It is better to do random spot checks.

It seems to me people are becoming paranoid about cheating in chess.

soheil_hooshdaran
Posts: 2978
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: Arbitration question

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:44 pm

Stewart Reuben wrote:
Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:25 pm
SOHEIL .So a chess arbiter cannot use these tells?

If, as an arbiter, you accuse somebody of cheating, then you are treading on very dangerous ground, if your evidence is solely body language. It may be sufficient however to use a wand to establish whether somebody has an electronic device on them. It is better to do random spot checks.

It seems to me people are becoming paranoid about cheating in chess.
I don't mean cheشing. I mean touch-move claim
Last edited by soheil_hooshdaran on Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Stewart Reuben
Posts: 4176
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: writer

Re: Arbitration question

Post by Stewart Reuben » Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:55 pm

Player A makes a touch move claim. Player B denies he has touched the piece.

I would never put a spectator, quite likely a player in another game, in the in idious position of asking what he has seen.
So I rule that no touch-move transgression took place as there is not evidence. However, I tell B that, is it happens again, even in a later game, I might rule differently.
In my 67 years as a chess administrator, I think I have come across that twice.

soheil_hooshdaran
Posts: 2978
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:24 pm

Re: Arbitration question

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:54 pm

In a not sufficiently supervised rapid game, the arbiter in his usual visits to the tables, observes a White King in check with his opponents clock running, and then he observes Black making an illegal move also, placing his King into check and pressing his clock.
What should the arbiter do?

Post Reply