Arbitration question

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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Arbitration question

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sat Oct 03, 2020 5:53 pm

"And what can arbiters do during this time where no tournament is possible?"

Eat whilst they have the chance...

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Arbitration question

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:58 pm

What do arbiters do when there are no organisers? That is why I was always puzzled there was an arbiters organisation before organisers.

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: Arbitration question

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:52 am

What should an arbiter do if a player, instead of completing his K-side casting, just moves his king to g8 and press the clock?

Ian Thompson
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Re: Arbitration question

Post by Ian Thompson » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:26 am

soheil_hooshdaran wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:52 am
What should an arbiter do if a player, instead of completing his K-side casting, just moves his king to g8 and press the clock?
Treat it in the same way as they would any other illegal move. Tell the player the move was illegal, put the king back on e1/e8 and tell the player he has to play a legal move. If the king has any legal moves he has to move it. He can castle if he wants to, but doesn't have to.

Jacob Ward
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Re: Arbitration question

Post by Jacob Ward » Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:59 pm

A question for Soheil - I've read this thread and the scenarios in it for about a year and always wondered - are these issues that have come up in tournaments you have run, or are they theoretical?

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: Arbitration question

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:21 pm

Jacob Ward wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 3:59 pm
A question for Soheil - I've read this thread and the scenarios in it for about a year and always wondered - are these issues that have come up in tournaments you have run, or are they theoretical?
Some occurred to me as a player/arbiter, some are asked by my seniors in exam and telegram/Whatsapp groups

Jacob Ward
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Re: Arbitration question

Post by Jacob Ward » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:51 pm

Thanks for indulging my curiosity. I'm glad you aren't actually having to deal with all these issues!

E Michael White
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Re: Arbitration question

Post by E Michael White » Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:12 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:26 am
soheil_hooshdaran wrote:
Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:52 am
What should an arbiter do if a player, instead of completing his K-side casting, just moves his king to g8 and press the clock?
Treat it in the same way as they would any other illegal move. Tell the player the move was illegal, put the king back on e1/e8 and tell the player he has to play a legal move. If the king has any legal moves he has to move it. He can castle if he wants to, but doesn't have to.
Ian,

have you considered FIDE laws 4.7 and 4.7.2 ?

EMW

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: Arbitration question

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:27 am

At my 6-round swiss-system Lichess weekender, I have 3 5-point players (each 5 wins and a loss. C won A and lost to B.B won C and lost to A. My regulations only mentioned Bokh-holtz as the pairing system.Bokh-holtz of player C is very bad as he played me (a new way of taking revenge from the opponent?!)
What should I do?

The tournament table is at
https://lichess.org/swiss/sZmCqmMD

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Arbitration question

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:15 pm

You should say that Alizooo and BlibberingHumdinger are equal first, because you did not include sufficient tie-breaks to break that tie. Then, in future tournaments, you should include more tie-break methods if you want them.

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: Arbitration question

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:05 pm

But, how many tie-breaks and what tie-breaks are sufficient?

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Arbitration question

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:20 pm

You'd have to be extraordinarily unlucky for TPR to not break a tie, so put that one somewhere in the list.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Arbitration question

Post by Ian Thompson » Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:08 pm

soheil_hooshdaran wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:05 pm
But, how many tie-breaks and what tie-breaks are sufficient?
Why do you need to break the tie? What is the problem with having joint winners if there is no, or negligible, difference in the players' performances?

soheil_hooshdaran
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Re: Arbitration question

Post by soheil_hooshdaran » Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:25 pm

We almost never have joint winners in Iran, and always use tie-breaks

Stewart Reuben
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Re: Arbitration question

Post by Stewart Reuben » Sun Nov 01, 2020 2:11 am

All tiebreak systems are defective; at least according to Professor Elo in 1964.

If you must have tiebreaks, and have no time for playoffs, I recommend Ra. That is the average rating of the opponents.
If one opponent is unrated, that can be ignored. More than one unrated, that system does not work.
The only merit of Bucholz is that it is not quite so silly as Sonneborn-Berger.

If there are just two players involved, then their result against each other counts. But often that is a draw.

SOP, Sum of Progressive scores is quite good. I think FIDE dislike it because it is too simple. One player went 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5. SOP = 20.
Another 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. SOP = 15. The drawback is that the second player probably met the first in the last round. That is why you need personal encounter to come first.

You can also use Greatest number of wins. Advantage it encourages more positive play. Disadvantage, the player winning the tiebreaks will have LOST more games.

Anybody who wins a game by default goes to the bottom of the score group. Again FIDE loathe it, because it is too simple.

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