Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

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IanCalvert
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Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

Post by IanCalvert » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:58 pm

In the interest of popular schadenfreude, perhaps this should be restricted to World Champions, GMs and IMs as victims but...

The question is open and about , not necessarily quality games, where a much weaker player wins or draws against a stronger opponent; say a gap of at least 50 points ECF or 400 FIDE. How does this happen?

Penrose v Tal came to mind but Penrose was too good!

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:00 pm

And anyway Penrose used to cheat - he went to bed early the night before a match!

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Matt Mackenzie
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Re: Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:04 pm

Karpov's loss to an obscure untitled German in a 1983 (all play all) tournament has to be up there.

Think it has been mentioned on here (and the game posted) before.......
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:36 pm

IanCalvert wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:58 pm
How does this happen?
Arguably experienced players in perhaps the 160 to 210 range are just as good as "average" IMs or GMs in some positions but lack consistency. So 19 moves from 20 will be good, but the 20th will be an absolute howler.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:08 am

Matt Mackenzie wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:04 pm
Karpov's loss to an obscure untitled German in a 1983 (all play all) tournament has to be up there.

Think it has been mentioned on here (and the game posted) before.......
This one maybe:

NickFaulks
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Re: Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:12 pm

IanCalvert wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:58 pm
The question is open and about , not necessarily quality games, where a much weaker player wins or draws against a stronger opponent; say a gap of at least 50 points ECF or 400 FIDE. How does this happen?
I would expect that such occurrences are quite common, happening when the lower rated player produces, on the day, better moves than their opponent. I think I have beaten an opponent 400 rating points above me and I have certainly been on the other end.

As for ECF grades, based on games which are in many cases played in the evening and close to quickplay, I imagine 50 point upsets are very common. I have been involved in one each way in the past couple of years, which would no doubt be more except that such "mismatches" are themselves rare.

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:20 pm

A rating difference of 400 corresponds to an expected score of 92% for the stronger player, so it should happen reasonably frequently.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:33 pm

One of my favourite 4NCL examples, partly because the winner really deserved the win (with a 410 rating point difference, so, er, maybe quite infrequent?!): Winkelmann v King, 2008/9

https://chesstempo.com/gamedb/game/2506791

Edit: I originally wrote "loser" instead of "winner". Don't ask.
Last edited by Jonathan Rogers on Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

IanCalvert
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Re: Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

Post by IanCalvert » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:34 pm

Thanks Jack and others.

500 FIDE rating points difference, with I guess an almost zero expected score, would have been better in my original post.

The question followed a game on Thursday when I drew with a player rated 47( =217- 171) ECF points higher with astonishing ease. I had White, played 1.b3 and we transposed into a Finachetto Grunfeld, D78, which i guess I Knew better than my opponent . There was never more than 0.5 pawn (Fritz15) in it and I held an 2B v 2B ending with symmetric pawns with surprising, to me, ease.

I had expected that someone might mention my belief that such extreme results may well be more common when the weaker player has White. This is separate from a 0-5 ECF point (say) advantage to White but relates to the initiative and control that White is more likely to have after the opening.

IanCalvert
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Re: Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

Post by IanCalvert » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:35 pm

Doh, 218-171 = 47

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:44 pm

Allowing draws to count really does make a difference. I daresay that other 170s who are comfortable playing 1 Nf3, b3, g3 or whatever with White must have quite reasonable chances of drawing with 200 + strength players in an evening match.

IanCalvert
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Re: Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

Post by IanCalvert » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:30 pm

Jonathan

Agreed , thanks.

My game was indeed an evening ( London) league match, I assume without generally much less opponent or opening preparation than is common in tournaments

IanCalvert
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Re: Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

Post by IanCalvert » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:31 pm

Replace "without" with "with"

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JustinHorton
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Re: Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:56 pm

"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

John Moore
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Re: Favourite Rating Upsets Ever: Wins or Draws.

Post by John Moore » Sat Nov 04, 2017 6:50 pm

Justin - that's a good one.

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