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In the interest of popular schadenfreude, perhaps this should be restricted to World Champions, GMs and IMs as victims but...

The question is open and about , not necessarily quality games, where a much weaker player wins or draws against a stronger opponent; say a gap of at least 50 points ECF or 400 FIDE. How does this happen?

Penrose v Tal came to mind but Penrose was too good!

And anyway Penrose used to cheat - he went to bed early the night before a match!

Karpov's loss to an obscure untitled German in a 1983 (all play all) tournament has to be up there.

Think it has been mentioned on here (and the game posted) before.......

IanCalvert wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:58 pm

How does this happen?

Arguably experienced players in perhaps the 160 to 210 range are just as good as "average" IMs or GMs in some positions but lack consistency. So 19 moves from 20 will be good, but the 20th will be an absolute howler.

Matt Mackenzie wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:04 pm

Karpov's loss to an obscure untitled German in a 1983 (all play all) tournament has to be up there.

Think it has been mentioned on here (and the game posted) before.......

This one maybe:
[Event "FRG-ch International"] [Site "Hannover FRG"] [Date "1983.08"] [EventDate "?"] [Round "1"] [Result "0-1"] [White "Anatoly Karpov"] [Black "Wolfram Hartmann"] [ECO "B81"] [WhiteElo "?"] [BlackElo "?"] [PlyCount "82"] 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e6 6. g4 a6 7. g5 Nfd7 8. Bg2 Nc6 9. a4 Be7 10. h4 h6 11. gxh6 g6 12. Nf3 Nde5 13. Ng5 f6 14. Nh3 Bf8 15. f4 Nf7 16. Be3 Qa5 17. Qd2 Nxh6 18. Nf2 Bd7 19. Bf3 O-O-O 20. O-O-O Be8 21. h5 d5 22. exd5 Nf5 23. Qe1 Nb4 24. dxe6 Rxd1+ 25. Bxd1 Bc6 26. Rg1 gxh5 27. Kb1 Nxe3 28. Qxe3 Bc5 29. Qe1 Qb6 30. Rf1 f5 31. Nd3 Nxd3 32. cxd3 Bg2 33. a5 Qd6 34. Rf2 Bxf2 35. Qxf2 Bc6 36. Bb3 h4 37. Qa7 h3 38. e7 h2 39. Be6+ Qxe6 40. Qa8+ Kd7 41. Qxh8 h1=Q+ 0-1

IanCalvert wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:58 pm

The question is open and about , not necessarily quality games, where a much weaker player wins or draws against a stronger opponent; say a gap of at least 50 points ECF or 400 FIDE. How does this happen?

I would expect that such occurrences are quite common, happening when the lower rated player produces, on the day, better moves than their opponent. I think I have beaten an opponent 400 rating points above me and I have certainly been on the other end.

As for ECF grades, based on games which are in many cases played in the evening and close to quickplay, I imagine 50 point upsets are very common. I have been involved in one each way in the past couple of years, which would no doubt be more except that such "mismatches" are themselves rare.

A rating difference of 400 corresponds to an expected score of 92% for the stronger player, so it should happen reasonably frequently.

One of my favourite 4NCL examples, partly because the winner really deserved the win (with a 410 rating point difference, so, er, maybe quite infrequent?!): Winkelmann v King, 2008/9

https://chesstempo.com/gamedb/game/2506791

Edit: I originally wrote "loser" instead of "winner". Don't ask.

Thanks Jack and others.

500 FIDE rating points difference, with I guess an almost zero expected score, would have been better in my original post.

The question followed a game on Thursday when I drew with a player rated 47( =217- 171) ECF points higher with astonishing ease. I had White, played 1.b3 and we transposed into a Finachetto Grunfeld, D78, which i guess I Knew better than my opponent . There was never more than 0.5 pawn (Fritz15) in it and I held an 2B v 2B ending with symmetric pawns with surprising, to me, ease.

I had expected that someone might mention my belief that such extreme results may well be more common when the weaker player has White. This is separate from a 0-5 ECF point (say) advantage to White but relates to the initiative and control that White is more likely to have after the opening.

Doh, 218-171 = 47

Allowing draws to count really does make a difference. I daresay that other 170s who are comfortable playing 1 Nf3, b3, g3 or whatever with White must have quite reasonable chances of drawing with 200 + strength players in an evening match.

Jonathan

Agreed , thanks.

My game was indeed an evening ( London) league match, I assume without generally much less opponent or opening preparation than is common in tournaments

Replace "without" with "with"

Justin - that's a good one.