Should this move attract a penalty?

Discuss anything you like about chess related matters in this forum.
Robert Stokes
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:51 pm

Should this move attract a penalty?

Post by Robert Stokes » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:09 am

Last night I was playing board 4 in a local league match. After my opponent's 32nd move the position was :-

White (opponent) Kf1, Qd2, Nh4 and pawns on h2, g3, f4, b3.

Black (me) Kg8, Qc5, Nd3, and pawns on a7, b7, c7, f7, g7, h6.

As I was two pawns up I played 32 ... Qc5 - c1+ in order to force off the queens. My opponent replied with Kf1 - e2. I then had a mental block, picked up his queen and 'captured' mine, put the white queen on c1 and took mine off the board. My opponent looked up in amazement and two spectators laughed. I didn't know why, so said, "Have I done anything wrong?" They pointed out the error so I said, "Oh, I wanted to exchange queens and just did it the wrong way round." We all had a laugh and I took the white queen off the board and put my black queen on d2 which of course my opponent took with his king. I went on to win but it took another 18 moves.

Should I have incurred a penalty for my mistake? Was what I did afterwards correct?

Thank you,
Robert

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1522
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: Should this move attract a penalty?

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:29 am

You have touched the white queen first and therefore must take it if you can.
You touched the black queen and must therefore take with the black queen if you can
You can
You didn't
Therefore you made an illegal move.
You suffer a 2 minute penalty but personally I never ask for such.
You must correct the illegal move to a legal one using all the touched pieces if that is possible (in your own time).
You did that.
Your opponent didn't ask for his 2 minutes so that's that.
The game was clearly played by convivial ladies and gentlemen playing the game in a lady-like and gentlemanly fashion. That, I am sure, will shortly be made a breach of the rules.

Angus French
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 1:37 am
Contact:

Re: Should this move attract a penalty?

Post by Angus French » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:00 pm

One point to add: "An illegal move is completed once the player has pressed his clock...". This is Law 7.5.1.

A copy of the 2017 Laws of Chess with annotations by the Chess Arbiters' Association is available here.

User avatar
Christopher Kreuzer
Posts: 6679
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 2:34 am
Location: London

Re: Should this move attract a penalty?

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:01 pm


Robert Stokes
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:51 pm

Re: Should this move attract a penalty?

Post by Robert Stokes » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:57 pm

Thank you. This raises the question of how to add two minutes penalty on a digital clock (DGT2010).

Robert

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 16673
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Should this move attract a penalty?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:45 pm

Robert Stokes wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:57 pm
Thank you. This raises the question of how to add two minutes penalty on a digital clock (DGT2010).
It's explained in the manual.

http://www.digitalgametechnology.com/in ... uages/file

You hold the start/stop button, the one in the middle, for 2 seconds.

This enables the time for each player and the move counter to be adjusted.
DGT Manual wrote: 8.
Time and Move Counter Correction
During a game you can change the time that is currently displayed. Hold the
button for two seconds until the far left display digit starts blinking. Now the times of both players can be corrected, digit by digit. To change the blinking digit, press the "+" or "-" button. Press the "tick" button to move to the next digit. After the player’s time, the move counter can be corrected: decrease or increase by pressing the "+" or "-" button. When the value is correct, press "tick". Now press "start/stop"
to restart the timer to resume the countdown based on the corrected times.
(From left to right, the buttons are "+", "-", "start/stop" and "tick". The actual manual uses icons)

You could also use this method to add x minutes the traditional way at move y.

Robert Stokes
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:51 pm

Re: Should this move attract a penalty?

Post by Robert Stokes » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:30 pm

Thank you again.

I suppose that I should have checked the manual but these are locked away with the clocks in the club except when being used.

Your last sentence will interest dome members of the club who preferred the old digital clocks.

Robert

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 16673
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Should this move attract a penalty?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:25 pm

Robert Stokes wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:30 pm
I suppose that I should have checked the manual but these are locked away with the clocks in the club except when being used.
You may need someone to sit at home with a clock and the manual and write up a crib sheet. You then print this and store it with the clocks. At the very least that records which settings to use for which competitions.

David Robertson
Posts: 1767
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:24 pm
Contact:

Re: Should this move attract a penalty?

Post by David Robertson » Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:33 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:25 pm
You may need someone to sit at home with a clock and the manual and write up a crib sheet. You then print this and store it with the clocks
Failing this, keep a 12-year old on hand

E Michael White
Posts: 1291
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:31 pm

Re: Should this move attract a penalty?

Post by E Michael White » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:58 pm

Angus French wrote: A copy of the 2017 Laws of Chess with annotations by the Chess Arbiters' Association is available here.
Angus that document would be useful if the annotations were consistent with the current FIDE rules.

David Williams
Posts: 178
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:37 pm

Re: Should this move attract a penalty?

Post by David Williams » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:54 pm

If you really want to be a stickler for the rules there is the possible exclusion of the spectators from the venue.

Angus French
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 1:37 am
Contact:

Re: Should this move attract a penalty?

Post by Angus French » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:32 pm

E Michael White wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:58 pm
Angus French wrote: A copy of the 2017 Laws of Chess with annotations by the Chess Arbiters' Association is available here.
Angus that document would be useful if the annotations were consistent with the current FIDE rules.
Oh, I've always found it helpful - and recommended it to others. Where is it inconsistent? Does it give incorrect advice on illegal moves?

Reg Clucas
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 3:45 pm

Re: Should this move attract a penalty?

Post by Reg Clucas » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:44 pm

Robert Stokes wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:30 pm

I suppose that I should have checked the manual but these are locked away with the clocks in the club except when being used.
It's worth pointing out that if you lose the paper manual (which I am sure must happen) you can download a PDF version from the DGT website.

E Michael White
Posts: 1291
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:31 pm

Re: Should this move attract a penalty?

Post by E Michael White » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:51 am

Angus French wrote:
Oh, I've always found it helpful - and recommended it to others. Where is it inconsistent? Does it give incorrect advice on illegal moves?
The CAA document was produced before the Rules Commission Goynuk, Antalya, Turkey meeting on 9 October 2017; as is stated in the CAA document.

There was also an RRC and FIDE Arbiters Commission meeting held on 14 of June 2017 which made some interpretations of the 1 July 2017 FIDE Laws. The RRC confirmed that these interpretations had immediate effect and also confirmed that at the Goynuk, Antalya, Turkey meeting. The RRC has a longstanding authority to make interpretations of the Laws which take immediate effect. All the minutes and documents are on http://rules.fide.com/

I won't list all the inconsistencies v the CAA UK document as the Laws are to change again on 1 Jan 2018 however regarding illegal moves the UK CAA document is out of line in stating :-

The correct procedure is to advance the pawn and then replace it with a piece of the same colour.

and

Recent interpretation on this is that such offences will be punished but castling will not count as an illegal move in the total of illegal moves but promotion certainly will.

Angus French
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 1:37 am
Contact:

Re: Should this move attract a penalty?

Post by Angus French » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:15 pm

Thanks Michael. I think you make good points.

Post Reply