Does the DGT2010 have a design fault?

[Robert Stokes]

Last night, in a local league match our board 1 player lost on time because of unfamiliarity with our digital clocks. He thought he had 15 minutes to be added when his clock ran out but he'd used up all 90 minutes. (He recently re-joined the club after a few years away.)

I believe this happened because of a feature of the DGT2010 which I consider to be a design fault. When the one player uses up all of the first time period, 15 minutes is added to both players time. A black flag is displayed to show that you are in the second time period but crucially this goes off after a couple of minutes. If, as happened yesterday, a player does not look at the clock while the flag is showing, but only after it has gone, they may not realise they have been given the extra time.

I suggest two possible improvements.

1. The black flag should be permanently displayed until one player gets to zero time when it flashes.

2. A figure 1 should be shown in a corner of the display (preferably in a different colour to the time figures) which changes to a 2 after the 15 minutes has been added.

What do others think?

Robert

[Roger de Coverly]

What do others think?

It is possible to program the clocks to add the time at the first time control. The trick is to use an increment setting, but with zero addition. Arbiters will hate you though.

Alternative solutions involve scrapping the intermediate time control and playing all moves in 90 minutes or all moves in 80 minutes with a 10 second increment. Practical experience of this in the Berks league is that 80 10 works well.

Recording the clock times can also act as an aide-memoir as to whether the additional time has been added.

I don't think the world shouted at DGT back in the 1990s, as this problem has been there since the clocks were first introduced back in 1994. Spectrum Congresses used them and this problem arose as they used a move rate of 36 in 90 plus 15.

You can have the alternative problem that a player forgets there's more time to come and moves too quickly.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

You can have the alternative problem that a player forgets there's more time to come and moves too quickly.

I wonder if a player has ever 'lost' on time without realising they had more time available?

[Barry Sandercock]

I'm sure they have.

[Alex Holowczak]

What do others think?

The clock is FIDE approved, and as such, it had to meet certain standards. The DGT 2010 meets those standards. So the clock is working as it was designed to work, and if there is a fault, then the fault is with the standards that FIDE have set DGT and other manufacturers to meet, and not the clock that meets them.

For what it's worth, the flag shows which player passed through 0.00 first. It doesn't show that the time control has been passed through, and isn't intended to show that at all. In much the same way that an analogue clock doesn't show this either.

[Roger de Coverly]

In much the same way that an analogue clock doesn't show this either.

Long standing practice with analogue clocks in the UK at least is that extra time is added provided both players agree that the initial time control has been reached. It's the uncertainty period when the clocks indicate an incorrect time remaining that presents the problem with use of digital clocks without active move counters.

For a player it's simple enough. Can I run my time to zero without losing on time? Yes or No? If the event rules specify G/90 or 80 10 and various equivalents, the answer is unambiguous.

[Ian Thompson]

You can have the alternative problem that a player forgets there's more time to come and moves too quickly.

I wonder if a player has ever 'lost' on time without realising they had more time available?

I saw a congress game a few years ago where both players were blitzing out moves, both thinking they were close to losing on time. The arbiter sensibly watched and let them do this until one player's time ran out, before telling them they both had more time available.

[Ian Thompson]

Long standing practice with analogue clocks in the UK at least is that extra time is added provided both players agree that the initial time control has been reached.

That is unsatisfactory when one player incorrectly thinks the time control has been reached when it hasn't. If he suggests adding the extra time it's difficult to respond without telling him the correct number of moves played. A player suggesting this may also distract his opponent when the opponent is in time trouble.

It is much better to wait until a flag falls before doing anything that depends on the time control having been reached.

[Roger de Coverly]

It is much better to wait until a flag falls before doing anything that depends on the time control having been reached.

Personally I think that attitude is nonsense and the cause of the problems with DGTs. If players have played quickly, the flag fall might be getting on for an hour after the time control has been reached. I did say that both players have to be satisfied that the requisite number of moves has been made, which is obvious provided both players have a completed scoresheet.

[NickFaulks]

Personally I think that attitude is nonsense and the cause of the problems with DGTs. If players have played quickly, the flag fall might be getting on for an hour after the time control has been reached. I did say that both players have to be satisfied that the requisite number of moves has been made, which is obvious provided both players have a completed scoresheet.

So what do you want the clock to do?

[Roger de Coverly]

So what do you want the clock to do?

Have a setting where you can add a preset amount of time to both sides with only a button press or two. In addition display the clock's opinion on the move count.

[NickFaulks]

Have a setting where you can add a preset amount of time to both sides with only a button press or two. In addition display the clock's opinion on the move count.

Taking the second point first, I suppose I could accept that, provided it were understood that the clock's opinion carried no more weight than that of a spectator. On that basis, it might cause more trouble than it saved. In addition it would clutter up the screen, so on balance I would prefer not.

I assume the intent of the first suggestion is that, when the players agree that the time control has been made, they make a manual adjustment to the clock. I think this is fraught with danger since, however simple the procedure, it will occasionally go wrong and the damage will be irretrievable.

I would be agreeable to the black flag not disappearing until one of the clocks has gone down to zero, signifying that further time has to be added. Here I am being unselfish, since it clutters my clock and I personally have no use for this feature, but it seems that others do.

[Stewart Reuben]

If you play a game like 40/90 + 30 with an increment of 30 seconds from move 1; there are two ways to program the clock.
1. The push counter is used. Then it adds on the extra time after Black has made his 40th move.
2. The push counter is not used and the extra time is added, only after one player's 90 minutes expire.
The problem with 1 is that the DGT clocks do not display the number of pushes. It is not uncommon for an extra one to have taken place, particularly at the beginning of the game. Were the number of pushes to be displayed, any error could be corrected early on.
I tried to convince Albert Vasse, then MD of DGT, that the clock could never be perfect unless the option, at least, existed of showing the number of pushes. I think he thought the information should NOT be shown to the players. That would constitute advice. Ridiculous of course.

The problem with 2 is that the extra time is not shown until one flag has fallen, possibly never. It is very cofusing.

I would only use the push counter where an arbiter starts all clocks.

[Roger de Coverly]

The problem with 1 is that the DGT clocks do not display the number of pushes.

The 2010 model has a button you can press which displays this count. That should be more widely made aware, since it gives a possible mechanism where a player in an evening league or tournament with 10 second increments can still make a 50 move claim.

[NickFaulks]

The 2010 model has a button you can press which displays this count.

I didn't know that ( which in itself proves little ). What do you have to do?