Surprise discovery in laws of chess
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Surprise discovery in laws of chess
I followed a link that someone had helpfully supplied in another of my threads to the laws of chess and arbitrator's notes on them. There it clearly said that the order "move, move, press clock, press clock" was allowed within the laws of the game. I was really surprised at this. I expected it to say that a player must not move until his opponent had completed his move by pressing the clock.
Can anyone explain the reasoning behind the order above?
Robert
Can anyone explain the reasoning behind the order above?
Robert
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Re: Surprise discovery in laws of chess
It's a legacy from the days before increments, when mad time scrambles were not infrequent. If you read tournament reports from the 1970s, you sometimes see references to players misbehaving by keeping their fingers on the buttons, thereby not allowing their clock to be started even for a microsecond.Robert Stokes wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:09 pmCan anyone explain the reasoning behind the order above?
If you needed to make 10 moves in 20 seconds, you cannot afford to wait 2 seconds for your opponent to have pressed the clock before moving yourself.
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Re: Surprise discovery in laws of chess
Thank you for your explanation although I can't really see that it justifies the rule. A finger on the button, or even near it, would break the rule about using only one hand to move and operate the clock. Perhaps that rule wasn't in force in the era you mentioned. I think this rule could allow confusion if it is retained. I can easily see three moves before a clock push happening whether intended or not.
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Re: Surprise discovery in laws of chess
OK. So what if that does happen?Robert Stokes wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:50 pmI can easily see three moves before a clock push happening whether intended or not.
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Re: Surprise discovery in laws of chess
Provided you are playing one handed as required by the Laws of Chess, how do you make a second move without pressing the clock? The sequence would runRobert Stokes wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:50 pmI can easily see three moves before a clock push happening whether intended or not.
White moves
Black moves (while White's hand is on its way to the clock)
White presses clock
Black presses clock
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Re: Surprise discovery in laws of chess
I see. I meant something like:- white moves, black moves, white moves and presses clock forgetting that he didn't do it on the previous move. Perhaps I'm trying to imagine trouble where none exists. I'm still surprised by the rule.
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Re: Surprise discovery in laws of chess
The problem with move, press clock, move, press clock in blitz or in a time scramble is that it is impossible for anyone to know the exact order. Did the player move before the clock was pressed or a fraction of a second after? You would also have players going to the button but not pressing knowing that their opponent will then move and incur a penalty.
Allowing move, move, press, press means that there are fewer disputes and, perhaps more importantly, fewer arbiter interventions at a time in the game where these would be most unwelcome.
In a perfect world move, press, move, press would be the rule but in the real world it is a rule that could not be enforced with 100% accuracy. Even if the Law was that a player could not move towards a piece until the clock was pressed how would you know what was a move towards the piece and what was a simple movement which would have taken place anyway - especially as some players are very twitchy when short of time.
Allowing move, move, press, press means that there are fewer disputes and, perhaps more importantly, fewer arbiter interventions at a time in the game where these would be most unwelcome.
In a perfect world move, press, move, press would be the rule but in the real world it is a rule that could not be enforced with 100% accuracy. Even if the Law was that a player could not move towards a piece until the clock was pressed how would you know what was a move towards the piece and what was a simple movement which would have taken place anyway - especially as some players are very twitchy when short of time.
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Re: Surprise discovery in laws of chess
Another reason for allowing this sequence is to allow for a player forgetting to press their clock. White moves and forgets to press their clock. Do we want a rule that penalises Black for moving before White realises? Black might not even have noticed that White forgot. If Black is allowed to move before White has pressed their clock, then you need to allow White to press their clock for three reasons - difficulty in determining the order of events if Black's move and White's clock press are almost simultaneous; the need for both players to press their clocks to maintain the correct move count by the clock (if the clock can do that); the need for both players to press their clocks to add increments if the game is being played with them.Robert Stokes wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:09 pmThere it clearly said that the order "move, move, press clock, press clock" was allowed within the laws of the game. I was really surprised at this. I expected it to say that a player must not move until his opponent had completed his move by pressing the clock.
Can anyone explain the reasoning behind the order above?
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Re: Surprise discovery in laws of chess
I had a league game 2 days ago where my opponent didn't press my clock thus giving me some free thinking time. I made my move and noticed my button was already pushed so I quickly pressed his button and then mine half a second later.
Didn't want to interupt the move order as we are playing 34 moves in 1hr 25 mins followed by 20 mins extra after move 34.
Didn't want to interupt the move order as we are playing 34 moves in 1hr 25 mins followed by 20 mins extra after move 34.
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Re: Surprise discovery in laws of chess
Hi Roger,
..."If you read tournament reports from the 1970s, you sometimes see
references to players misbehaving by keeping their fingers on the buttons."
I recall reading about Botterill v Mecking in a 70's CHESS. I found this.
'The Bandit of the Chessboards'
“In the game Botterill - Mecking Hastings, 1972, Mecking came in 2nd and made a GM norm.
at the time both were running out of time, with 2 or 3 minutes for 8 moves each.
Mecking pressed the button of the clock and kept his hand on it, not allowing the Englishman to press it back.
The arbiter did not see it and Botteril lost his temper, and two moves later, the game.
Everyone was extremely indignant and Najdorf called Mecking “the bandit of the chessboards."
https://kevinspraggettonchess.wordpress ... interview/
(Mecking was actually 3rd. first and second was tied between Karpov and Korchnoi.)
Here is the game. The ½ dozen or so move do indicate a time scramble taking place.
White played 35.b3 allowing the f6 pawn to be taken 35...Qf1+ and 36...Qxf6 (35.Nc1!)
After that White's resignation was overdue at that level when the Knight
was lost on g7, unless of course an opponent was in sever time trouble.
George Steven Botterill - Henrique Mecking, Hastings 1972
..."If you read tournament reports from the 1970s, you sometimes see
references to players misbehaving by keeping their fingers on the buttons."
I recall reading about Botterill v Mecking in a 70's CHESS. I found this.
'The Bandit of the Chessboards'
“In the game Botterill - Mecking Hastings, 1972, Mecking came in 2nd and made a GM norm.
at the time both were running out of time, with 2 or 3 minutes for 8 moves each.
Mecking pressed the button of the clock and kept his hand on it, not allowing the Englishman to press it back.
The arbiter did not see it and Botteril lost his temper, and two moves later, the game.
Everyone was extremely indignant and Najdorf called Mecking “the bandit of the chessboards."
https://kevinspraggettonchess.wordpress ... interview/
(Mecking was actually 3rd. first and second was tied between Karpov and Korchnoi.)
Here is the game. The ½ dozen or so move do indicate a time scramble taking place.
White played 35.b3 allowing the f6 pawn to be taken 35...Qf1+ and 36...Qxf6 (35.Nc1!)
After that White's resignation was overdue at that level when the Knight
was lost on g7, unless of course an opponent was in sever time trouble.
George Steven Botterill - Henrique Mecking, Hastings 1972
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Re: Surprise discovery in laws of chess
Robert Stokes.
The matter of moving, before the opponent had pressed his clock, last came up in the Rules Commission when Geurt Gijssen was chairman. Geurt felt it was then quite common practice and should not be outlawed.
I later pointed out the possibility of the follownig in blitz:
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6. 4 Q. Before White could complete his move (Qe2), Black plays 4...Nd4. White plays 4 Qh5 (illegal ) but Black cannot claim. 5 Qxf7 mate.
Perhaps, with more and more games played with an increment, it is time to revisit this, rather minor, matter?
SEASON'S GREETINGS from Tenerife, where the weather is a tad warmer.
The matter of moving, before the opponent had pressed his clock, last came up in the Rules Commission when Geurt Gijssen was chairman. Geurt felt it was then quite common practice and should not be outlawed.
I later pointed out the possibility of the follownig in blitz:
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6. 4 Q. Before White could complete his move (Qe2), Black plays 4...Nd4. White plays 4 Qh5 (illegal ) but Black cannot claim. 5 Qxf7 mate.
Perhaps, with more and more games played with an increment, it is time to revisit this, rather minor, matter?
SEASON'S GREETINGS from Tenerife, where the weather is a tad warmer.
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Re: Surprise discovery in laws of chess
I don't agree.Stewart Reuben wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:39 pmI later pointed out the possibility of the follownig in blitz:
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6. 4 Q. Before White could complete his move (Qe2), Black plays 4...Nd4. White plays 4 Qh5 (illegal ) but Black cannot claim. 5 Qxf7 mate.
This sequence implies that Black plays 4...Nd4 before White has made the move 4.Qe2 (or queen to any other square for that matter). That means Black has made two moves in a row, which White could claim is illegal. If White doesn't claim the illegality and makes the move Qe2 instead, Black has got away with making two moves in a row and it's Black's move again. If White doesn't claim the illegality and makes the move Qh5 instead, Black has again got away with making two moves in a row and can now claim for White's illegal move Qh5.
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Re: Surprise discovery in laws of chess
Ian
According to the Laws a player can commence his move before the opponent has completed his. White has picked up his queen. The only legal move is Qe2, but he hasn't yet made it. Black now makes his legal move Nd4. White has never let go of his queen, so he plays Qh5. Black cannot make any claim as he had made his fourth move.
I did make a mistake. It should be 3...Bc5. Otherwise with 3...Nf6 4 Qe2 Nd4 5 Nxd4 exd4 6 e5 is very strong
By the way 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 Qe2 Nf6 5 Bxf7+?! Kxf7 5 Qc4+ d5 favours Black.
According to the Laws a player can commence his move before the opponent has completed his. White has picked up his queen. The only legal move is Qe2, but he hasn't yet made it. Black now makes his legal move Nd4. White has never let go of his queen, so he plays Qh5. Black cannot make any claim as he had made his fourth move.
I did make a mistake. It should be 3...Bc5. Otherwise with 3...Nf6 4 Qe2 Nd4 5 Nxd4 exd4 6 e5 is very strong
By the way 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 Qe2 Nf6 5 Bxf7+?! Kxf7 5 Qc4+ d5 favours Black.
Last edited by Stewart Reuben on Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Surprise discovery in laws of chess
Wouldn't a solution to this be to amend the rules to state that an illegal move can be claimed before your move has been completed rather than before it has been made?
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Re: Surprise discovery in laws of chess
That's the flaw in your example. The Laws do allow Black to move before White has completed his move. They do not allow Black to move before White has made his move. In your example, White has not let go of his queen, so no move has been made and Black cannot move again until White has let go of the piece. (Obviously, once White has let go of the piece, he can't then pick it up again and change the move he's made by putting it on a different square if the original move was legal, as Qe2 is.)Stewart Reuben wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:32 amAccording to the Laws a player can commence his move before the opponent has completed his. White has picked up his queen. The only legal move is Qe2, but he hasn't yet made it. Black now makes his legal move Nd4. White has never let go of his queen, so he plays Qh5.