Surprise discovery in laws of chess

[Robert Stokes]

I followed a link that someone had helpfully supplied in another of my threads to the laws of chess and arbitrator's notes on them. There it clearly said that the order "move, move, press clock, press clock" was allowed within the laws of the game. I was really surprised at this. I expected it to say that a player must not move until his opponent had completed his move by pressing the clock.

Can anyone explain the reasoning behind the order above?

Robert

[Roger de Coverly]

Can anyone explain the reasoning behind the order above?

It's a legacy from the days before increments, when mad time scrambles were not infrequent. If you read tournament reports from the 1970s, you sometimes see references to players misbehaving by keeping their fingers on the buttons, thereby not allowing their clock to be started even for a microsecond.

If you needed to make 10 moves in 20 seconds, you cannot afford to wait 2 seconds for your opponent to have pressed the clock before moving yourself.

[Robert Stokes]

Thank you for your explanation although I can't really see that it justifies the rule. A finger on the button, or even near it, would break the rule about using only one hand to move and operate the clock. Perhaps that rule wasn't in force in the era you mentioned. I think this rule could allow confusion if it is retained. I can easily see three moves before a clock push happening whether intended or not.

[Alex Holowczak]

I can easily see three moves before a clock push happening whether intended or not.

OK. So what if that does happen?

[Roger de Coverly]

I can easily see three moves before a clock push happening whether intended or not.

Provided you are playing one handed as required by the Laws of Chess, how do you make a second move without pressing the clock? The sequence would run

White moves
Black moves (while White's hand is on its way to the clock)
White presses clock
Black presses clock

[Robert Stokes]

I see. I meant something like:- white moves, black moves, white moves and presses clock forgetting that he didn't do it on the previous move. Perhaps I'm trying to imagine trouble where none exists. I'm still surprised by the rule.

[Alex McFarlane]

The problem with move, press clock, move, press clock in blitz or in a time scramble is that it is impossible for anyone to know the exact order. Did the player move before the clock was pressed or a fraction of a second after? You would also have players going to the button but not pressing knowing that their opponent will then move and incur a penalty.
Allowing move, move, press, press means that there are fewer disputes and, perhaps more importantly, fewer arbiter interventions at a time in the game where these would be most unwelcome.
In a perfect world move, press, move, press would be the rule but in the real world it is a rule that could not be enforced with 100% accuracy. Even if the Law was that a player could not move towards a piece until the clock was pressed how would you know what was a move towards the piece and what was a simple movement which would have taken place anyway - especially as some players are very twitchy when short of time.

[Ian Thompson]

There it clearly said that the order "move, move, press clock, press clock" was allowed within the laws of the game. I was really surprised at this. I expected it to say that a player must not move until his opponent had completed his move by pressing the clock.

Can anyone explain the reasoning behind the order above?

Another reason for allowing this sequence is to allow for a player forgetting to press their clock. White moves and forgets to press their clock. Do we want a rule that penalises Black for moving before White realises? Black might not even have noticed that White forgot. If Black is allowed to move before White has pressed their clock, then you need to allow White to press their clock for three reasons - difficulty in determining the order of events if Black's move and White's clock press are almost simultaneous; the need for both players to press their clocks to maintain the correct move count by the clock (if the clock can do that); the need for both players to press their clocks to add increments if the game is being played with them.

[Kevin O'Rourke]

I had a league game 2 days ago where my opponent didn't press my clock thus giving me some free thinking time. I made my move and noticed my button was already pushed so I quickly pressed his button and then mine half a second later.

Didn't want to interupt the move order as we are playing 34 moves in 1hr 25 mins followed by 20 mins extra after move 34.

[Geoff Chandler]

Hi Roger,

..."If you read tournament reports from the 1970s, you sometimes see
references to players misbehaving by keeping their fingers on the buttons."

I recall reading about Botterill v Mecking in a 70's CHESS. I found this.

'The Bandit of the Chessboards'

“In the game Botterill - Mecking Hastings, 1972, Mecking came in 2nd and made a GM norm.
at the time both were running out of time, with 2 or 3 minutes for 8 moves each.

Mecking pressed the button of the clock and kept his hand on it, not allowing the Englishman to press it back.

The arbiter did not see it and Botteril lost his temper, and two moves later, the game.

Everyone was extremely indignant and Najdorf called Mecking “the bandit of the chessboards."

https://kevinspraggettonchess.wordpress ... interview/

(Mecking was actually 3rd. first and second was tied between Karpov and Korchnoi.)

Here is the game. The ½ dozen or so move do indicate a time scramble taking place.

3k1bQ1/3n1pN1/p2p1Pp1/4p3/2q1P3/8/NPP4P/1K6 w - - 0 35

White played 35.b3 allowing the f6 pawn to be taken 35...Qf1+ and 36...Qxf6 (35.Nc1!)

After that White's resignation was overdue at that level when the Knight
was lost on g7, unless of course an opponent was in sever time trouble.

George Steven Botterill - Henrique Mecking, Hastings 1972
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd4 4. Nd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Be7 8. Qf3 Qc7 9. O-O-O Nbd7 10. g4 b5 11. Bf6 Nf6 12. a3 Rb8 13. f5 e5 14. Nde2 Bb7 15. Ng3 Ba8 16. g5 Nd7 17. f6 gf6 18. Nh5 Rg8 19. gf6 Bf8 20. Bh3 b4 21. ab4 Rb4 22. Rhg1 Rg6 23. Rg6 hg6 24. Ng7 Kd8 25. Be6 Nc5 26. Bd5 Qa7 27. Qh3 Bd5 28. Nd5 Ra4 29. Kb1 Nd7 30. Qh8 Qc5 31. Nc3 Rb4 32. Na2 Rd4 33. Rd4 Qd4 34. Qg8 Qc4 35. b3 Qf1 36. Kb2 Qf6 37. Qh8 Qg7 38. Qh4 Qf6 39. Qe1 Qf4 40. Qa5 Ke7 41. Nb4 Qe4

[Stewart Reuben]

Robert Stokes.
The matter of moving, before the opponent had pressed his clock, last came up in the Rules Commission when Geurt Gijssen was chairman. Geurt felt it was then quite common practice and should not be outlawed.
I later pointed out the possibility of the follownig in blitz:
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6. 4 Q. Before White could complete his move (Qe2), Black plays 4...Nd4. White plays 4 Qh5 (illegal ) but Black cannot claim. 5 Qxf7 mate.
Perhaps, with more and more games played with an increment, it is time to revisit this, rather minor, matter?

SEASON'S GREETINGS from Tenerife, where the weather is a tad warmer.

[Ian Thompson]

I later pointed out the possibility of the follownig in blitz:
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6. 4 Q. Before White could complete his move (Qe2), Black plays 4...Nd4. White plays 4 Qh5 (illegal ) but Black cannot claim. 5 Qxf7 mate.

I don't agree.

This sequence implies that Black plays 4...Nd4 before White has made the move 4.Qe2 (or queen to any other square for that matter). That means Black has made two moves in a row, which White could claim is illegal. If White doesn't claim the illegality and makes the move Qe2 instead, Black has got away with making two moves in a row and it's Black's move again. If White doesn't claim the illegality and makes the move Qh5 instead, Black has again got away with making two moves in a row and can now claim for White's illegal move Qh5.

[Stewart Reuben]

Ian

According to the Laws a player can commence his move before the opponent has completed his. White has picked up his queen. The only legal move is Qe2, but he hasn't yet made it. Black now makes his legal move Nd4. White has never let go of his queen, so he plays Qh5. Black cannot make any claim as he had made his fourth move.
I did make a mistake. It should be 3...Bc5. Otherwise with 3...Nf6 4 Qe2 Nd4 5 Nxd4 exd4 6 e5 is very strong
By the way 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Bc5 4 Qe2 Nf6 5 Bxf7+?! Kxf7 5 Qc4+ d5 favours Black.

[David Shepherd]

Wouldn't a solution to this be to amend the rules to state that an illegal move can be claimed before your move has been completed rather than before it has been made?

[Ian Thompson]

According to the Laws a player can commence his move before the opponent has completed his. White has picked up his queen. The only legal move is Qe2, but he hasn't yet made it. Black now makes his legal move Nd4. White has never let go of his queen, so he plays Qh5.

That's the flaw in your example. The Laws do allow Black to move before White has completed his move. They do not allow Black to move before White has made his move. In your example, White has not let go of his queen, so no move has been made and Black cannot move again until White has let go of the piece. (Obviously, once White has let go of the piece, he can't then pick it up again and change the move he's made by putting it on a different square if the original move was legal, as Qe2 is.)