Clock Problem - What Should the Arbiter Do?

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Mick Norris
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Re: Clock Problem - What Should the Arbiter Do?

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:06 pm

Christopher Kreuzer wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:53 pm
One thing I would encourage all team captains who have digital clocks to do is practice how to set clock times as preparation for eventualities such as needing to replace a clock, or add time to a clock. I have seen several cases in recent seasons (more as digital clocks get used more) where time needed to be added to a clock after an illegal move, and it took some time for this to be done. As the player involved in more than one such case (both involving a different model of digital clock), it is quite difficult to sit there and wait while people try and work out what to do (it is difficult for the captains as well, as it puts a lot of pressure on them). It is something I would struggle to do quickly and accurately. Noting the clock times is essential in case anything goes wrong!

(Maybe players should learn how to do this as well, and offer to reset the clock times in such cases?)
When we had trouble with digitals at county matches, we were ok if any juniors were playing, and in trouble if not; hopefully by now, we have more players who know how the clocks work
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Clock Problem - What Should the Arbiter Do?

Post by Roger Lancaster » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:25 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:45 pm

If that's really true, it's a ridiculous state of affairs.

I have been very reluctant to accept that increasing the use of digital clocks will cause greater problems in England than it has done in other countries, including chess developing nations.

Unfortunately there seems to be some evidence that such is the case.
David, I think you're absolutely right about it's being a "ridiculous state of affairs" and there's no need to withdraw. However, ridiculous or not, it seems to be something we're stuck with. I imagine that the younger generation of players, who tend to be more adept with electronic gadgets, will solve this problem even if their elders don't.

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Adam Raoof
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Re: Clock Problem - What Should the Arbiter Do?

Post by Adam Raoof » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:03 am

OK

If I were to make a video showing users how to set a DGT2010 clock, what would the most important priorities be?

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JustinHorton
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Re: Clock Problem - What Should the Arbiter Do?

Post by JustinHorton » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:30 am

Remember to turn the camera on when you want to start shooting.
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David Sedgwick
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Re: Clock Problem - What Should the Arbiter Do?

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:16 am

Adam Raoof wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:03 am
OK

If I were to make a video showing users how to set a DGT2010 clock, what would the most important priorities be?

There are already a number of videos about setting DGT clocks. Google "video for setting DGT clock".

Alex Holowczak's video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOBfVROW6zA is very good, but specific to the Birmingham League. Perhaps you could produce a more general version.

There is an excellent article on the use of DGT2010 clocks on the Essex Chess Association website at http://essexchess.org.uk/index.php/comp ... icle?id=57.

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Re: Clock Problem - What Should the Arbiter Do?

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:20 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:25 am
David Sedgwick wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:45 pm

If that's really true, it's a ridiculous state of affairs.

I have been very reluctant to accept that increasing the use of digital clocks will cause greater problems in England than it has done in other countries, including chess developing nations.

Unfortunately there seems to be some evidence that such is the case.
David, I think you're absolutely right about it's being a "ridiculous state of affairs" and there's no need to withdraw. However, ridiculous or not, it seems to be something we're stuck with. I imagine that the younger generation of players, who tend to be more adept with electronic gadgets, will solve this problem even if their elders don't.

I edited my original post to remove the words to which Jonathan Melsom justifiably objected. I stand by the amended content which you have quoted.

Kevin O'Rourke
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Re: Clock Problem - What Should the Arbiter Do?

Post by Kevin O'Rourke » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:04 pm

Any game where an increment is NOT being used should be played with a mechanical wind up clock.

They are just easier to use for anything regarding:

. adding 2 min penalty
.someone forgetting to press it and thus the clock miscounts the move
. Battery running out or bug in the system where the clock goes mad/possessed
. Ease of swapping the clock round at the start if people sit at the wrong side and black wants to choose the side of the clock. (this has happened many times after setting the dam clock)
. They just look so much nicer and add a bit of tradition to the game

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Clock Problem - What Should the Arbiter Do?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:07 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:16 am

There is an excellent article on the use of DGT2010 clocks on the Essex Chess Association website
It doesn't mention that you can in fact program the clocks to only add time when the requisite number of moves has been made and not display a misleading phantom flag fall. It does however mention that you can find out how many moves the clock believes have been played.

For club use anyway, I would have thought the key points are to program the local move rates when you first acquire the clocks, remind players and match captains of what these settings are and how to reset them if the clocks been set to something else. Usually this only involves pressing the plus or minus buttons to reach the right setting and pressing a couple of buttons to confirm.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Clock Problem - What Should the Arbiter Do?

Post by Ian Thompson » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:29 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:39 am
Michael Flatt wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:19 pm
The most important information is missing - What did the Arbiter do and did both players accept his decision?
You don't need to know that when the question is what should the arbiter have done. I'll tell you what he actually did (which was a reasonable decision under the circumstances, in my opinion) when people have had time to comment on the original question.
David Sedgwick wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:57 pm
Ian Thompson wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:41 am
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:30 pm
We seem to have no evidence as to how much time each player actually spent, so I'd get a new clock and set it to 72' + 30' +30"/move, or, if you're using the move counter, 26/72' + G/30' + 30"/move.
Correct, there was no evidence. However, both players agreed that White had spent longer than Black thinking about his moves, but neither player could quantify how much longer.
Recommended practice in this situation is to try and give each player slighly more time than he would have had had nothing gone wrong.

I would be inclined to give White 72' and Black 82', thus lengthening the proceedings by ten minutes.
As this thread has now gone completely off topic, I'll disclose that the arbiter did what David recommended.

The game wasn't interrupted and the clocks stopped until White had played his 15th move, at which point the clock said he had about 32 minutes left. That means, after allowing for the increments, the total elapsed time on both clocks should have been about 45 minutes.

The arbiter replaced the clock and said he would give us about 10 minutes extra time, setting White's clock to 65 minutes and Black's clock to 75 minutes remaining. Both players accepted this.

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Re: Clock Problem - What Should the Arbiter Do?

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:55 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:29 pm
As this thread has now gone completely off topic, I'll disclose that the arbiter did what David recommended.
Do you happen to know whether I trained, or was trained by, the arbiter in question?

Ian Thompson
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Re: Clock Problem - What Should the Arbiter Do?

Post by Ian Thompson » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:40 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:55 am
Ian Thompson wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:29 pm
As this thread has now gone completely off topic, I'll disclose that the arbiter did what David recommended.
Do you happen to know whether I trained, or was trained by, the arbiter in question?
You tell me David. The arbiter was Erik Mouret (from France). If you don't know him directly, I'll bet you're well within six degrees of separation of having common training.

David Sedgwick
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Re: Clock Problem - What Should the Arbiter Do?

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:29 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:40 pm
David Sedgwick wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:55 am
Ian Thompson wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:29 pm
As this thread has now gone completely off topic, I'll disclose that the arbiter did what David recommended.
Do you happen to know whether I trained, or was trained by, the arbiter in question?
You tell me David. The arbiter was Erik Mouret (from France). If you don't know him directly, I'll bet you're well within six degrees of separation of having common training.
Ian, I suppose that I should have realised that, as this story came from you, it was highly likely that the incident took place abroad.

I have never actually met Erick Mouret, but I have corresponded with him by email and spoken to him on a conference call. So I am only one degree of separation from him.

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