Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

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Chris Goodall
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by Chris Goodall » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:43 pm

Do we object to the basic principle that FIDE (Agon) have a right to control the live transmission of the moves from their events?

It's obviously content that we value, otherwise we wouldn't complain about losing it. If we want to sustain our core of chess "professionals", we either carry on giving deep-pocketed Saudi Arabians, Russians and Iranians good publicity in return, or we diversify our revenue streams.

Or are we happy to see more money coming into chess as long as it's not coming into FIDE and Agon?
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. ECF Grader for the ancient kingdom of Bernicia (or Northumberland and Durham, if you prefer). And now also Darlington. And the NCCU.
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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:52 pm

Chris Wardle wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:43 pm
Do we object to the basic principle that FIDE (Agon) have a right to control the live transmission of the moves from their events?
Pretty much, yes.

NickFaulks
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:21 pm

Chris Wardle wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:43 pm
Or are we happy to see more money coming into chess as long as it's not coming into FIDE and Agon?
Just asking, what is the reason for minding where it comes from? I certainly wouldn't mind the involvement of FIDE or Agon, except that Agon have objectionable business practices and in any case money doesn't pass through them, it sticks to them. I realise that Russia isn't flavour of the month, but aren't the Saudis supposed to be our allies ( if it matters )?

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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:35 pm

Hi Chris,

"....whose army is going to be guarding Starbucks in case I pull out a chessboard."

All Starbucks have CCTV. Your moves will be recorded. If Starbucks broadcast these moves live
then you and them will be in big big trouble.

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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:38 pm

Chris Wardle wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:43 pm
It's obviously content that we value, otherwise we wouldn't complain about losing it.
It's an extremely long standing principle that the record of the moves played in a game of chess is factual, thus not anyone's property whether the players' or the organisers'. That applies whether moves are recorded as 1. e4 or White moved the pawn to the King's Fourth.

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Chris Goodall
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by Chris Goodall » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:59 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:21 pm
Chris Wardle wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:43 pm
Or are we happy to see more money coming into chess as long as it's not coming into FIDE and Agon?
Just asking, what is the reason for minding where it comes from? I certainly wouldn't mind the involvement of FIDE or Agon, except that Agon have objectionable business practices and in any case money doesn't pass through them, it sticks to them. I realise that Russia isn't flavour of the month, but aren't the Saudis supposed to be our allies ( if it matters )?
That they're supposed to be our allies makes it even less fair on our female players when they get harassed by Saudi police for wearing makeup or going out without a male escort, because it means we can't complain too much. It's one of those ethical things where not taking a stand constitutes taking a stand.
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:38 pm
Chris Wardle wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:43 pm
It's obviously content that we value, otherwise we wouldn't complain about losing it.
It's an extremely long standing principle that the record of the moves played in a game of chess is factual, thus not anyone's property whether the players' or the organisers'. That applies whether moves are recorded as 1. e4 or White moved the pawn to the King's Fourth.
Extremely long standing principles are the most likely principles to be in need of revision. Especially if technology overtakes them.
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. ECF Grader for the ancient kingdom of Bernicia (or Northumberland and Durham, if you prefer). And now also Darlington. And the NCCU.
Newcastle is not in Scotland!

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JustinHorton
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:04 pm

Well,they've tried to revise them, and courts in two different legal systems have told them they're not interested.
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:05 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:38 pm
It's an extremely long standing principle that the record of the moves played in a game of chess is factual, thus not anyone's property whether the players' or the organisers'. That applies whether moves are recorded as 1. e4 or White moved the pawn to the King's Fourth.
It would be genuinely helpful if you were to send this comment, and any others you have, as a response to their request. That is of course precisely why you won't.

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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by Chris Goodall » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:04 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:04 pm
Well,they've tried to revise them, and courts in two different legal systems have told them they're not interested.
I saw the US judgement. It seemed to me to ignore the question of what's actually valuable to people. It makes no sense to give chess24 a free pass because they're producing content from secondary sources "at great expense", when chess24 clearly expect the production of that content to be a money-making proposition for themselves - or they wouldn't be doing it. And if chess24 hadn't broadcast live but had recreated the moves from the previous day and commented on them as though they were live, no-one would have watched - or they would have fast-forwarded to the good parts. What gets audiences to tune in is the suspense, the knowledge that the grandmasters commenting on the game are in the same boat as you in not knowing what will happen next. That's why having the moves as they're played is so much more valuable than having them 3 hours later when you already know the result.

Outside the world of sport, it's considered perfectly normal for competition organisers to withhold "facts" from us. Great British Bake Off is all filmed in advance. The identity of the winner is a "fact" before the first episode is aired. But it's not a fact that the public has any right to know. It's a fact that you can get into legal trouble for revealing. What's good enough for GBBO is good enough for chess, isn't it?
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. ECF Grader for the ancient kingdom of Bernicia (or Northumberland and Durham, if you prefer). And now also Darlington. And the NCCU.
Newcastle is not in Scotland!

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JustinHorton
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:13 pm

No, it isn't.

In the first place, it's not the law, and it's an argument that Agon have had available to them in several court judgements. So it's simply not their call to make.

In the second place, were the media to discover who had won GBBO, and to publicise the fact, the show's owners couldn't do anything about that. They could certainly act against anybody who had told the media, if that were somebody who had contracted not to do so, but the very fact of publication would be completely outside their control.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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Chris Goodall
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by Chris Goodall » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:46 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:13 pm
No, it isn't.

In the first place, it's not the law, and it's an argument that Agon have had available to them in several court judgements. So it's simply not their call to make.

In the second place, were the media to discover who had won GBBO, and to publicise the fact, the show's owners couldn't do anything about that. They could certainly act against anybody who had told the media, if that were somebody who had contracted not to do so, but the very fact of publication would be completely outside their control.
Isn't the point of this document that it gives FIDE that same right to act against anyone who tells facts to the media?
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. ECF Grader for the ancient kingdom of Bernicia (or Northumberland and Durham, if you prefer). And now also Darlington. And the NCCU.
Newcastle is not in Scotland!

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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:50 pm

But those people aren't its employees or contracted to it.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:57 pm

Chris Wardle wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:04 pm
What's good enough for GBBO is good enough for chess, isn't it?
It's accepted in television programs made for later transmission. The analogy with chess is only if you had a totally closed doors event like the BBC's Master Game and a 1980s Kasparov v Short rapid match.

Otherwise it's a public event and discussing the moves as played is the same as discussing a cricket or football score. Agon would only have a case if others were retransmitting their video or commentary.

Agon knew or should have known what the legal position was on coverage before they "bought" the rights off FIDE. By contrast, the World Rapid and Blitz which was directly run by the Saudis and FIDE had no restrictions. Equally the Grand Chess Tour which also showcases top players doesn't have restrictions either.

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Chris Goodall
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by Chris Goodall » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:20 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:50 pm
But those people aren't its employees or contracted to it.
They've accepted the terms and conditions on the ticket by being in the playing hall.
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. ECF Grader for the ancient kingdom of Bernicia (or Northumberland and Durham, if you prefer). And now also Darlington. And the NCCU.
Newcastle is not in Scotland!

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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:23 pm

You have read the document which this thread relates to, yes?
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

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