Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

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JustinHorton
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:54 pm

Chris Wardle wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:39 pm
Ian Thompson wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:38 am
Retransmitting moves on your own website that were received from the official broadcast may not be live, but, for chess broadcasting, it's as good as. If I wanted to watch a broadcast on a particular website because I liked their commentators, for example, it wouldn't bother me that there was a slight delay on the transmission. I wouldn't switch to the official broadcast because of it.
I mean, if I was the official broadcaster I would still be frustrated to discover that my broadcasting rights - and all the attendant marketing and merchandising opportunities - were rendered basically worthless by the very act of exercising them. For Yasser Seirawan to say that:
Yasser Seirawan wrote:Chess event organizers have a monopoly on absolutely clear uncontestable copyrightable materials: They have all photography rights; all webcam rights (of the players in action over the board); all audio rights to their own online show; they have all post-game interview rights; including still photography, video and audio; press conference rights; they have all promotional rights that feature the players; they have merchandizing rights to the players' images and likenesses; as well as other numerous rights ... allowing them to make the very best (online) show of their own event. ... How could any other party “compete” against such a show?
is rather ignoring the fact that chess24 did compete, successfully, against such a show, while owning no rights other than the right to watch an official broadcast of the moves.
Do you think they were assisted the fact that Agon's online show was so grotesquely bad?
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NickFaulks
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:19 pm

Chris Wardle wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:39 pm
The moves are more valuable and the uncontestable copyrightable materials less valuable than we'd like them to be.
Who are "we"? It is clear to me that the moves are by far the most valuaable commodity, and I don't have a view on whether this is a good thing, it is just a fact.
I think if chess24, or any other broadcaster, are prepared to profit from FIDE's monopoly, they have to also accept the monopoly holder's right to blacklist them.
I think this discussion has veered away from the point. FIDE are not seeking to crowdsource an opinion on whether they have the right to a monopoly on broadcasting the moves. I imagine they have that covered. The question is whether, if they did, it would be beneficial to chess for them to exercise it.

Chris ( I think ) believes it would, and will presumably be responding to the consulation document saying so. I shall say the opposite. If Agon respond to not getting monopoly rights by pulling out, so much the better.

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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by Chris Goodall » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:23 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:46 pm
That's tough, because the free use of game scores long pre-dates the existence of Agon; FIDE as well given the principle dates back to Victorian times.
Right, but it's a red herring, because "free" has always been subject to other people' willingness to convert effort into added value by conveying the moves to you, whether newspapers, TV stations or websites. You've never had the right to subscribe to the Northumberland county championship and have the games delivered to your eyeballs free of charge.
JustinHorton wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:54 pm
Do you think they were assisted the fact that Agon's online show was so grotesquely bad?
Not really. Because you'd have had to subscribe to the Agon package in the first place to find out that you preferred chess24's. And chess24 committed budget to staff, graphic design, marketing and whatnot before the match started, before anyone knew that Agon's online show would be grotesquely bad. They wouldn't do that if they didn't think they could compete successfully.
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JustinHorton
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:41 pm

Or they might have gone by the experience of just about literally everything Agon have done so far.
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:43 pm

Chris Wardle wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:23 pm
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:46 pm
That's tough, because the free use of game scores long pre-dates the existence of Agon; FIDE as well given the principle dates back to Victorian times.
Right, but it's a red herring, because "free" has always been subject to other people' willingness to convert effort into added value by conveying the moves to you, whether newspapers, TV stations or websites. You've never had the right to subscribe to the Northumberland county championship and have the games delivered to your eyeballs free of charge.
I confess that this time I'm not even getting what the point is supposed to be.
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:01 pm

For clarity, could it be confirmed that Chris does think it would be beneficial to chess for FIDE to claim monopoly rights over the moves, while Roger thinks it would not?

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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by Chris Goodall » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:16 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:43 pm
Chris Wardle wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:23 pm
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:46 pm
That's tough, because the free use of game scores long pre-dates the existence of Agon; FIDE as well given the principle dates back to Victorian times.
Right, but it's a red herring, because "free" has always been subject to other people' willingness to convert effort into added value by conveying the moves to you, whether newspapers, TV stations or websites. You've never had the right to subscribe to the Northumberland county championship and have the games delivered to your eyeballs free of charge.
I confess that this time I'm not even getting what the point is supposed to be.
The game scores. They are not "free". "Free" implies we, the public, can't be charged for looking at them. That has never been the case.

There's a lot of Agon-skepticism today. Would people be more sympathetic to FIDE's case if they liked the organisation better that was currently sitting in the official broadcaster's chair (but might not be next time round)?

In an ideal world, no-one would get blacklisted from chess. But if FIDE can't make elite chess economical unless someone gives them a briefcase full of cash, I would much, much rather see them aggressively protecting their broadcasting revenue than sucking up to the Middle East states and Russia any further. A women's speed chess championship in Saudi Arabia? Seriously?
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:26 pm

Chris Wardle wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:16 pm
The game scores. They are not "free". "Free" implies we, the public, can't be charged for looking at them. That has never been the case.
On the contrary, that's always been the case. If a passing spectator happens to note the moves played in the Northumberland Championships, the organisers of that event have no rights to prevent the spectator doing what they wish with that historic record. If the spectator adds value by commenting and annotating, that's their intellectual property which then can sell on or give away.
Chris Wardle wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:16 pm
Would people be more sympathetic to FIDE's case if they liked the organisation better that was currently sitting in the official broadcaster's chair (but might not be next time round)?
No they wouldn't. Over the years, various attempts have been made to redefine the status of the score of a game of chess. All have defeated and monopolists should be warned off.

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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by NickFaulks » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:39 pm

Chris Wardle wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:16 pm
But if FIDE can't make elite chess economical unless someone gives them a briefcase full of cash, I would much, much rather see them aggressively protecting their broadcasting revenue than sucking up to the Middle East states and Russia any further.
Thanks for the clarification. If you really do believe that it would be a good thing for FIDE to muzzle sites which seek to retransmit moves, then you should certainly tell them so. They probably think there is not a single chess fan anywhere, let alone in England, who holds that view.

I expect they would also say that your analysis of their business model is flawed.
Last edited by NickFaulks on Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by Chris Goodall » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:39 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:26 pm
On the contrary, that's always been the case. If a passing spectator happens to note the moves played in the Northumberland Championships, the organisers of that event have no rights to prevent the spectator doing what they wish with that historic record. If the spectator adds value by commenting and annotating, that's their intellectual property which then can sell on or give away.
And if the passing spectator decides that they're not going to show you the moves unless you buy their newspaper, you would have no right to demand that the historical record of the moves be released into the public domain (saving you the cost of a newspaper). That the moves are "free" to the passing spectator doesn't make them free to the public.
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:26 pm
Chris Wardle wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:16 pm
Would people be more sympathetic to FIDE's case if they liked the organisation better that was currently sitting in the official broadcaster's chair (but might not be next time round)?
No they wouldn't. Over the years, various attempts have been made to redefine the status of the score of a game of chess. All have defeated and monopolists should be warned off.
So there's nothing to fear from the proposals in this document then, because they won't work?
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. ECF Grader for the ancient kingdom of Bernicia (or Northumberland and Durham, if you prefer).
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:01 pm

Chris Wardle wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:39 pm
And if the passing spectator decides that they're not going to show you the moves unless you buy their newspaper, you would have no right to demand that the historical record of the moves be released into the public domain (saving you the cost of a newspaper).
It's the other way round. Once the moves are no longer secret, anyone can quote them.
Chris Wardle wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:39 pm
So there's nothing to fear from the proposals in this document then, because they won't work?
It wastes everyone's time and money having to repeatedly cover the same ground, to say nothing of the bad feeling it generates. Someone from Agon came on the forum and asserted that it was against their legal rights to discuss games of the Candidates or World Championship whilst the games were in progress.

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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:14 pm

Chris Wardle wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:16 pm
[But if FIDE can't make elite chess economical unless someone gives them a briefcase full of cash
Elite chess patently is economical. You don't see many elite players jacking it in because they can't earn a crust.
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:21 pm

Chris Wardle wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:39 pm

And if the passing spectator decides that they're not going to show you the moves unless you buy their newspaper, you would have no right to demand that the historical record of the moves be released into the public domain (saving you the cost of a newspaper). That the moves are "free" to the passing spectator doesn't make them free to the public.
However I am free to copy the moves out of the newspaper and distribute or redistribute them, and so is everybody else.

You absolutely don't have a case here. Moves of chess games are not private or intellectual property, they're not subject to copyright and no amount of argument will make them so.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by Chris Goodall » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:11 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:21 pm
Chris Wardle wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:39 pm

And if the passing spectator decides that they're not going to show you the moves unless you buy their newspaper, you would have no right to demand that the historical record of the moves be released into the public domain (saving you the cost of a newspaper). That the moves are "free" to the passing spectator doesn't make them free to the public.
However I am free to copy the moves out of the newspaper and distribute or redistribute them, and so is everybody else.

You absolutely don't have a case here. Moves of chess games are not private or intellectual property, they're not subject to copyright and no amount of argument will make them so.
No-one is arguing that they are private or intellectual property or subject to copyright. Did you read the document? FIDE aren't talking about enforcing their copyright or protecting their property. They're talking about chess sanctions for chess offences. No courts or legal decisions required.
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. ECF Grader for the ancient kingdom of Bernicia (or Northumberland and Durham, if you prefer).
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Re: Consultation on the Draft FIDE Live Moves Broadcasting Policy

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:19 pm

No, they're not talking about chess sanctions for chess offences. They're talking about chess sanctions for non-existent offences.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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