Unfortunate start and end to county match

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JustinHorton
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Re: Unfortunate start and end to county match

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:42 am

I don't suppose when somebody gets the start time wrong and turns up two hours late, they've done it deliberately with malice aforethought, but they're still looking at a zero against their name.
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Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Unfortunate start and end to county match

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:46 am

Stewart Reuben wrote an excellent Handbook, where he suggested making a checklist. He was talking about tournaments, but the same applies here. You write 16 boards, sets and clocks (maybe a couple extra clocks), spare batteries, 50 score sheets... and tick the paper or screen when you have them. Not too difficult I suggest!

Chris Rice
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Re: Unfortunate start and end to county match

Post by Chris Rice » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:18 am

I remember two incidents when I was the Kent Open team captain. One where no equipment was there at the start and another where four players from the opposing side were not going to make the default time but desperately wanted to play. Some of my players wanted to play even though rules had been broken, others were not so happy. Given the circumstances above, therefore, I know exactly what I would have done.

As Captain of County B I would have gone up to the opposing Captain of County A and told him that it is clear that it is his responsibility to bring standard equipment to the match. This had not been done and therefore a 12-0 result for County B was claimable. However, a lot of the players on both sides would have not cared about this and would just want to play a game of chess under competitive conditions ie not just a friendly. I would therefore have said to my players that if they wanted to claim their individual game due to proper equipment not being provided they were free to do so. For the others in the County B team If they were happy to play on the makeshift boards, which might have been very nicely done for all I know, then they were perfectly free to play those games. Under the circumstances I don't see how the opposing Captain could have complained (as I suspect from my own experience that most players would want to play) but if he did then I would say, fine, 12-0 it is then.

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Re: Unfortunate start and end to county match

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:27 am

The thing that upsets me most about this is that it's embarrassing for English chess.

There are comments about it on the Internet about whether or not drawing boards on paper because they've forgotten to bring the proper boards is an April Fools joke, and even that it's ECF incompetence somehow. In the Internet era, it isn't even confined to being embarrassing nationally. :(

Jonathan Bryant
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Re: Unfortunate start and end to county match

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:34 am

Chris Rice wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:18 am
I don't see how the opposing Captain could have complained ....
You say that but ...

Several years ago I was a club captain for match where the away team turned up with 4 players for a 7 board match (one of those four barely knowing how to move the pieces). When their captain told me on arrival that they were several boards short I told him I would send three of our team home.

At the start of the match their captain tried to claim the three empty boards as draws on the grounds that our side was three players short at the time of the match too.


Other than that, I have to say I entirely agree with your post.

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Re: Unfortunate start and end to county match

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:44 am

Neil Graham wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:55 am
I understand that the decision will be posted on the MCCU Website shortly.
I look forward to reading this.

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Re: Unfortunate start and end to county match

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:05 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:27 am
The thing that upsets me most about this is that it's embarrassing for English chess.

There are comments about it on the Internet about whether or not drawing boards on paper because they've forgotten to bring the proper boards is an April Fools joke, and even that it's ECF incompetence somehow. In the Internet era, it isn't even confined to being embarrassing nationally. :(
Agreed and as this match was a qualifier for the national stages you can't say that the ECF is entirely untainted. This is the point I made on the MCCU thread which seems to have kicked off something of a storm.

To forget the boards is human. Silly but human. However for me the key point is that boards could have been sourced, it just would have taken about an hour to do so. However instead of somebody jumping in their car time was wasted making paper boards. If I had been the away team captain I might have been generous in allowing half an hour before the clocks were started as you never know when you might need some goodwill from the opposition.
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Neil Graham
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Re: Unfortunate start and end to county match

Post by Neil Graham » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:16 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:27 am
The thing that upsets me most about this is that it's embarrassing for English chess.

There are comments about it on the Internet about whether or not drawing boards on paper because they've forgotten to bring the proper boards is an April Fools joke, and even that it's ECF incompetence somehow. In the Internet era, it isn't even confined to being embarrassing nationally. :(
I've not seen any of these but as we know people will make ill considered remarks about absolutely anything on the internet and more particularly social media. As it is this whole thread was started by one of the players concerned opining about the match on here before a final decision had been reached. As in life so in chess, things occasionally go wrong.

In this case representatives from both Counties together with the Event Controller appeared before a five person Disputes Committee of the MCCU which included two arbiters, one an International Arbiter. They listened to submissions from all parties about what had occurred and then went into closed session. After this (which took over an hour) a written decision was read out to all the parties and the committee was closed.

Of course everyone will have a ready opinion on what happened - none of whom were either at the match or party to the submissions or indeed the deliberations of the Committee.

It's unfortunate - but no more an embarrassment to English chess than other things of a less transient nature.

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Re: Unfortunate start and end to county match

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:36 pm

Neil Graham wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:16 pm
a written decision was read out to all the parties
Which will be published? Claiming a match on the grounds of sub-standard equipment will now be in the armoury of some other match captains, so we need a precise basis. For instance, I have played many FIDE rated games on paper boards and it would never have occurred to me that these were unacceptable.

Nick Grey
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Re: Unfortunate start and end to county match

Post by Nick Grey » Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:27 pm

I would rather those that are moaning about this help their own counties more than they currently do.
Other than some day before checks between captains there is not a lot on equipment front.
I know on my short stint I made clear before taking the job on I do not drive hence I cannot transport equipment if we need to.

I do not see this as a big issue for English Chess as it has limited exposure. An unfortunate issue - yes.

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Re: Unfortunate start and end to county match

Post by Chris Goodall » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:26 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:27 am
The thing that upsets me most about this is that it's embarrassing for English chess.

There are comments about it on the Internet about whether or not drawing boards on paper because they've forgotten to bring the proper boards is an April Fools joke, and even that it's ECF incompetence somehow. In the Internet era, it isn't even confined to being embarrassing nationally. :(
Attribution Bias. The bane of investigative journalists everywhere. We assume that newsworthy effects must have come from newsworthy causes. Someone screws up, it must be symptomatic of a culture of screwing up. It can't be because they were just plodding through life making one decision at a time. That reasonable explanation wouldn't fill any column inches.
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Nick Grey
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Re: Unfortunate start and end to county match

Post by Nick Grey » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:11 pm

It would be a very poor April Fools Joke with a 29th March date.

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Re: Unfortunate start and end to county match

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:24 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:05 pm
To forget the boards is human. Silly but human. However for me the key point is that boards could have been sourced, it just would have taken about an hour to do so.
I think it was a shame that it was in Lincolnshire. If it were something like Warwickshire or a London county, it might have been trivial to get replacement equipment at short notice. I say this as someone who organised a junior event in Rugby recently and didn't quite have enough clocks... :oops: But we got some replacements just in time. I found that embarrassing.
Nick Grey wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:27 pm
I do not see this as a big issue for English Chess as it has limited exposure. An unfortunate issue - yes.
You'd be surprised how far and wide this Forum is read. A surprisingly high number English-speaking attendees of FIDE Congresses seem to be aware of this Forum, for starters.
Nick Grey wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:11 pm
It would be a very poor April Fools Joke with a 29th March date.
The Committee decision was announced here on the afternoon of 31st March, so it's not unreasonable that someone might only have read it the following morning.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Unfortunate start and end to county match

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:37 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:24 pm
You'd be surprised how far and wide this Forum is read. A surprisingly high number English-speaking attendees of FIDE Congresses seem to be aware of this Forum, for starters.
Do we have any reason to care about this, particularly?
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Re: Unfortunate start and end to county match

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:10 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:37 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:24 pm
You'd be surprised how far and wide this Forum is read. A surprisingly high number English-speaking attendees of FIDE Congresses seem to be aware of this Forum, for starters.
Do we have any reason to care about this, particularly?
It was a response to Nick Grey's point about "limited exposure". The international readership of this was just one example to Nick that the exposure may be wider than he first thinks. That was the extent of my point, really.

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