New Idea for Caro-Kann players

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John Moore
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New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by John Moore » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:02 pm

I guess if you play the Caro-Kann at club level, one thing that can get fairly tedious is the following 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 ed5 cd5 4 Bd3 Nc6 5 c3 Nf6 6 Bf4 Bg4 7 Qb3. Of course, you can deviate earlier with ... g6 ideas or 5 .. Qc7 but if you go down this line, you now have none too exciting a choice between 7 .. Na5 or 7 .. Qc8 and White carries on playing his ideas for ages and as long as he takes some precautions against the minority attack and plays some attacking ideas on the King side, it's not so easy for Black.

Perhaps as a Caro player you should instead go for it and play 7 .. e5. Think of the shock value and it's not such a bad move. White's King is still in the centre and the knights on the original squares. You can look for yourself but both 8 e5 and 8 Be5 are met by 8 .. Qe7 and 8 h3 Na5 9 Qc2 ef4 10 hg4 Ng4 looks OK for Black.

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Chris Goodall
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Chris Goodall » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:56 pm

If you play the Caro-Kann at club level, one thing that can get fairly tedious is playing the Caro-Kann.

7...e5 doesn't lose material, which is nice, but surely if you play the Caro-Kann you have to be mentally prepared to play pawn structure chess? 7...e5 is anti-pawn-structure chess, because it makes your d-pawn isolated. What do you get in return?
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Geoff Chandler
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Geoff Chandler » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:01 pm

8.dxe5 Nh5 is the current choice.



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Roger de Coverly
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:17 pm

John Moore wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:02 pm
1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 ed5 cd5 4 Bd3 Nc6 5 c3 Nf6 6 Bf4 Bg4 7 Qb3. Of course, you can deviate earlier with ... g6 ideas or 5 .. Qc7 but if you go down this line, you now have none too exciting a choice between 7 .. Na5 or 7 .. Qc8 and White carries on playing his ideas for ages and as long as he takes some precautions against the minority attack and plays some attacking ideas on the King side, it's not so easy for Black.
Not that I play the position for either colour, but 7. .. Qd7 is as popular as 7. .. Qc8

I have not been able to find any game where 7. .. e5 was given a punt. Engines don't flag it as a blunder

John Moore
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by John Moore » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:28 pm

Chris Goodall wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:56 pm
If you play the Caro-Kann at club level, one thing that can get fairly tedious is playing the Caro-Kann.

7...e5 doesn't lose material, which is nice, but surely if you play the Caro-Kann you have to be mentally prepared to play pawn structure chess? 7...e5 is anti-pawn-structure chess, because it makes your d-pawn isolated. What do you get in return?
Activity and surprise value! Next question.

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Chris Goodall
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Chris Goodall » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:13 pm

John Moore wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:28 pm
Chris Goodall wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:56 pm
If you play the Caro-Kann at club level, one thing that can get fairly tedious is playing the Caro-Kann.

7...e5 doesn't lose material, which is nice, but surely if you play the Caro-Kann you have to be mentally prepared to play pawn structure chess? 7...e5 is anti-pawn-structure chess, because it makes your d-pawn isolated. What do you get in return?
Activity and surprise value! Next question.
If you wanted activity, you'd have played the Sicilian/French/1...e5/anything other than the Caro-Kann. You're trying to start a fire in a bucket of water.

Surprise value isn't a good thing - this is one of those persistent clichés you get in mediocre opening books. If you're playing a 1.e4 player, one who knows enough Caro theory to get into that position in the first place, they aren't going to fall off their chair in amazement when you play a standard freeing move. They're going to wonder why they haven't seen this novelty before. The result of you surprising them will be to put them on high alert for any tactics. You don't want them on high alert, you want them on autopilot.
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Paul Cooksey
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Paul Cooksey » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:00 am

Chris Goodall wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:13 pm
If you wanted activity, you'd have played the Sicilian/French/1...e5/anything other than the Caro-Kann.
Were any of your opening books written this millennium? :evil:

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Chris Goodall
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Chris Goodall » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:42 am

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:00 am
Chris Goodall wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:13 pm
If you wanted activity, you'd have played the Sicilian/French/1...e5/anything other than the Caro-Kann.
Were any of your opening books written this millennium? :evil:
They certainly were - but for every speculative sideline that spices up the Caro-Kann, you can find a speculative sideline that spices up the Sicilian too. People have to sell opening books. A club level opponent will probably mess your plan up through sheer incompetence and force you to rely on the basic characteristics of the position.
Chris Goodall, formerly known as Chris Wardle. ECF Grader for the ancient kingdom of Bernicia (or Northumberland and Durham, if you prefer). And now also Darlington. And the NCCU.
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LawrenceCooper
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by LawrenceCooper » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Guess which opening appeared on top board of the US Championship? https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tourn ... 018/11/1/1

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:22 pm

You might think you can't get activity in the Caro-Kann. I couldn't possibly comment.


Roger de Coverly
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:35 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:11 pm
Guess which opening appeared on top board of the US Championship?
Coincidence, or the long reach of this forum? To confuse matters even more, Shankland didn't take on e5, playing h3 instead.

Apparently there was also a game between Navara and Wei Yi in February.


John Moore
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by John Moore » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:17 am

I am just waiting on the call to join Caruana's team as his openings ideas guru :lol:

Roger de Coverly
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:47 am

John Moore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:17 am
I am just waiting on the call to join Caruana's team as his openings ideas guru
There was a story that when .. e5 appeared on the board, the commentator, Seirawan thought it a malfunction of the display. Shankland was evidently familiar with it and it appears to have been played a few times in recent months.

I've sometimes wondered whether you couldn't play that Caro line as white (1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 cxd5 ) as if it was a Queens Gambit Declined Exchange variation. So you play Be2 instead of Bd3. You can suffer with Black defending the Queens Gambit and an extra tempo probably doesn't help much.

NickFaulks
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:05 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:47 am
There was a story that when .. e5 appeared on the board, the commentator, Seirawan thought it a malfunction of the display. Shankland was evidently familiar with it and it appears to have been played a few times in recent months.
In earlier times Yasser would have done his homework a bit better than that.

Mick Norris
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Re: New Idea for Caro-Kann players

Post by Mick Norris » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:57 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:11 pm
Guess which opening appeared on top board of the US Championship? https://chess24.com/en/watch/live-tourn ... 018/11/1/1
Chess mind analysis with Dennis disappointed to see e5 played :lol:
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

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