What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

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Gavin Hughes
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Gavin Hughes » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:59 pm

The rule must be badly drafted if two clubs have legitimately intrepeted them in different ways.

Several years ago a junior living in Dartford contacted me to travel all the way to Brentwood for a club night (not a great journey round the m25). I wasnt around that night but knew we had a rapid ko fixture v Upminster so not to waste his journey said he could play if he wanted which he was happy to. He was about 14 at the time graded 170+ but lost both games v another 170. He is now 220+.

I just think its lucky he didnt win.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Alex Holowczak » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:20 pm

Gavin Hughes wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:59 pm
The rule must be badly drafted if two clubs have legitimately intrepeted them in different ways.
I don't think they have. Everyone understands the rule, you just disagree with the Controller's judgement. Which is why you probably should have contacted the Controller in advance to make sure that the player was eligible.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:31 pm

The term "bona fide" rings a bell from the old eligibility rules for the National Club Open. Arguably the BCF was right to rule that being the brother in law of a current student didn't count as eligibility for a University based club. Equally though it considered a senior member of the same university and former English top 10 player also not eligible as he didn't play in local county league matches.

Gavin Hughes
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Gavin Hughes » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:37 am

Which is why you probably should have contacted the Controller in advance to make sure that the player was eligible.
Not really if you think the player is ok and there is no reference to clearance in the rules. In the future before each game i might as well give the controller my team sheet. It is not as if we had a non paying member who has never played for us before and he lives relatively nearby.

Nick Grey
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Nick Grey » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:05 am

If there was not an objection at the exchange of team sheets then this is a very bad decision.
If I was sitting on the appeal panel I would have overturned the controller's decision. In my opinion he is a bona fide member.

Any ruling made because of an individual club having a different view on another clubs members is very bad.

It is not in the best interests of English Chess. Or chess in Essex. And now to a posting on County Chess...

E Michael White
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by E Michael White » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:16 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:41 pm
It should be a statement of the blindingly obvious that, with "bona fides" meaning "in good faith".....
Though rather more blind belief than obvious deduction !

However "bona FIDE" is adverbial in nature as it is derived from the ablative case and can only relate to actions, though it can be used adjectivally as regards an action ( and thus an imputed adverb) but not a person. For example legal cases sometimes rely on a statement such as the item was a bona FIDE purchase.

The rule as it stands is unclear as it relies on context which is in the mind only of the rule writer and controller. Why else do players disagree ? The closest interpretation of the rule in English is that the team captain must act in good faith which they seem to have done. The controller needs to do a lot of work to prove he didn't. The term Bona FIDE Member does not contribute anything very much to the eligibility question. So the rule is unsatisfactory and the controller probably erred.

This type of rule which doesn't say anything very much but leaves decisions to the controllers are not very helpful as captains are more likely to act first without full knowledge of how their action will be interpreted and so should be replaced by a more definite rule without the misunderstood Latin words. One thing is certain, the arbiter rule writers and ECF officials will carry on insisting these type of context reliant rules are clear and don't understand why there are disputes. They also don't seem to understand rules are read by parents of young players and the parents may be non players so context familiarity should not be assumed.

And I thought a Bona FIDE member was a member with a FIDE rating >2300 !

Alex Holowczak
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:42 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 11:31 pm
The term "bona fide" rings a bell from the old eligibility rules for the National Club Open.
Indeed, and I changed it.
Gavin Hughes wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:37 am
Which is why you probably should have contacted the Controller in advance to make sure that the player was eligible.
Not really if you think the player is ok and there is no reference to clearance in the rules. In the future before each game i might as well give the controller my team sheet. It is not as if we had a non paying member who has never played for us before and he lives relatively nearby.
So you genuinely don't see the point that bringing in a 200+ player for a Cup Final looks to any detached observer like you're fielding a ringer? And therefore this is different from the players who have regularly played for you last season?

Gavin Hughes
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Gavin Hughes » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:50 am

Alex, not as he has been associated with the club before. Neil Carr stopped playing for years then came back to play for Writtle. I was pleased to see him return as opposed to worry if he was ok to play for a club. If i turn up to play a really strong player unexpectedly i dont moan about it and accept the result being grateful for the few ops i get to play someone miles better, learn from it as opposed to finding non chess playing way to win.
After 30+ years of chess this was the first year i got to play a gm in a competition. It was a pleasure to lose:)

Alex Holowczak
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:07 am

Gavin Hughes wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:50 am
Alex, not as he has been associated with the club before. Neil Carr stopped playing for years then came back to play for Writtle. I was pleased to see him return as opposed to worry if he was ok to play for a club. If i turn up to play a really strong player unexpectedly i dont moan about it and accept the result being grateful for the few ops i get to play someone miles better, learn from it as opposed to finding non chess playing way to win.
After 30+ years of chess this was the first year i got to play a gm in a competition. It was a pleasure to lose:)
I understand that. However, if you have rules regarding eligibility, you still need to comply with them rather than complain when others decide that you haven't.

Trevor Coote
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Trevor Coote » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:26 am

Alex

the rule is bona fide member
the google definition is below

bona fide


/ˌbəʊnə ˈfʌɪdi/


adjective

adjective: bona fide; adjective: bonafide

1. genuine; real.
"she was a bona fide expert"

synonyms: authentic, genuine, real, true, actual, sterling, sound, legal, legitimate, lawful, valid, unadulterated, unalloyed, proper, straight, fair and square; informal honest-to-goodness, legit, pukka, on the level, the real McCoy
"each partner is entitled to an indemnity for all bona fide expenses

What is a bona fide person?

adjective [usually before noun] /ˌbəʊnə ˈfaɪdi/ a bona fide person or thing is really what they seem to be or what they claim to be. a bona fide commercial transaction. Real and seeming real:real, true, genuine...

I will say that David is a authentic genuine real true legal; valid pukka on the level member of Brentwood chess club as a paid member of the club but your saying he is not because he was brought in for a cup semi final
as a controller you are saying he is not a bona fide member
tell me why and tell me more importantly when he becomes a bona fide member in your view !!!!

Alex Holowczak
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:33 am

The rule is designed to stop clubs fielding ringers. Fielding a player graded 200+ in a Cup Semi Final (my bad) who had hitherto not played for your club for some time, will look to people as though that is precisely what you have done.

Therefore, you forced the Controller to make his own judgement about the rule, in a controversial way that was entirely unnecessary had you taken precautionary measures to speak to him in the first place. You might have disagreed with that judgement, but that judgement is what the rule empowers the Controller to make. More importantly, this argument wouldn't be happening after the match.

If you push someone into making a judgement decision where there are arguments on both sides, then you have to accept that sometimes, you will lose the argument.

Nick Grey
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Nick Grey » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:49 am

So this is from how it looks from outside... how can I ever refuse...I think that I win when I lose. Writtle Now do you think you won the war!

Was there an objection before the match started. Rather than a ruling given after the match has concluded. Ok so you haven't messed up the grading. But really! Particularly as it is clear a member and wants to play for the club.

It is a shame that the director of home chess takes the view about bringing in a ringer for a Cup Final (or other round) rather than the benefits to chess, Essex, and the competition. I'm surprised that Writtle lodged the complaint. From the outside (or to an informed chess player) that looks like sore losers.

There may have been some upraised eyebrows about the Surrey League Alexander Cup Final and a gap of 44 years between playing a match for our honorary vice president. Our rules = bona fide members. The quality of the games were excellent, as well as the venue, and those supporting the event.

Great publicity, a celebration of a chess cup final, some excellent chess, and celebration of achievement, at the venue, and in the pub after.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:57 am

Nick Grey wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:49 am
It is a shame that the director of home chess takes the view about bringing in a ringer for a Cup Final (or other round) rather than the benefits to chess, Essex, and the competition.
He doesn't, he thinks the rule is bad too. That's why he has changed rules saying the same thing in his own competitions. His point is that despite the rule being bad, it is the rule. He also thinks it is drafted properly.

Trevor Coote
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Trevor Coote » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:12 am

Alex

when does david become a bona fide member?

Alex Holowczak
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:24 am

Trevor Coote wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:12 am
Alex

when does david become a bona fide member?
Image

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