What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

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David Shepherd
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by David Shepherd » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:05 pm

When any player plays their first match for a club they have joined they could be accused of not being "Bona Fide" member and just being drafted in for that one match particularly if it is a cup match.

If there is no further definition of "Bona Fide" in the context of the competition rules then at some point, someone must make a decision based on how the rules are written and as far as possible with regard to the intention of the rules.

If I was asked to do this, the sort of things I would look at are:

1) Where does the player live and work - is it close to club?

2) Has the person paid membership fees (but may be acceptable even if they hadn't for example the player could have been given free membership if they hold a title)?

3) Has the player played for the club before?

4) is there any other evidence for example emails?

5) The strength of the player - the stronger the player the more likely they have been head hunted for a particular match (but teams do have strong players who play occasionally)

6) The background of the club - has historically a very strong player played for just one important match?

Roger Lancaster
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:14 pm

It's a well-known concept in legal circles that there are some words - "normal" and "regular" are typical examples - where the meaning can't be pinned down with universal accuracy and that such words have (in the last resort) to be interpreted by judges against the circumstances in which they are used. Much the same situation applies here in that it's impossible to set down a set of rules, attempting to define "member" or "bona fide member", which would be equitable in every conceivable circumstance. So, as with "normal" and "regular", interpretation is needed in each case. Without wishing to seem discourteous, I have to say that those who don't understand this are pursuing a futile argument.

Gavin Hughes
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Gavin Hughes » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:11 pm

When i tell people nothing to do with chess or the politics of it from all walks they dont the decision.

Trevor Coote
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Trevor Coote » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:25 pm

its a simple question Alex

I am asking your opinion
WHEN DOES DAVID BECOME AN BONA FIDE MEMBER OR IS IT NEVER ?

You can put on clever diagram but a simple question deserves an BONA FIDE answer from you

Alex Holowczak
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:26 pm

Trevor Coote wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:25 pm
its a simple question Alex

I am asking your opinion
WHEN DOES DAVID BECOME AN BONA FIDE MEMBER OR IS IT NEVER ?

You can put on clever diagram but a simple question deserves an BONA FIDE answer from you
It is indeed a simple question. It is also an entirely irrelevant one.

Mick Norris
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Mick Norris » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:40 pm

Blimey, is Essex now Surrey in disguise?
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

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JustinHorton
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:10 pm

Still some way to go in that respect I think
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Nick Grey
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Nick Grey » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:42 pm

There has not been such a significant dispute in Surrey for a number of years.
When there was we agreed to do something about it. Change the rules to deal with never having the problem reoccurring.
And that has worked.

Let's put it this way. If I were a member of Writtle, I would not want my club to make such a complaint in the first place. Or if it did to get the controller/appeal committee to rule against Writtle. I certainly would not want to play for my club again.

Generally leagues get themselves wrapped up with rules that does not allow players to move or transfer. Many only make the complaint after they have lost.

I'm wishing for the coming season we have no disputes at all about chess clubs. I blew out a candle on my small dessert thinking about this discussion.

Trevor Coote
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Trevor Coote » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:50 pm

To Alex


How can it be an irrelevant question when the whole topic is what is a BONA FIDE member

if You don't know then just be honest and say so

if you do know enlighten the masses with your vast knowledge however irrelevant you feel it maybe

so just one more time

WHEN DOES DAVID BECOME AN BONA FIDE MEMBER OR IS IT NEVER ?

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IM Jack Rudd
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:52 pm

Alex is not an official of, or player in, the league in question. Why would he be expected to know what its definition of a bona fide member is?

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:01 pm

I think the problem is that there are two different matters under discussion here. One is (as the title suggests) what a Bona Fide member actually is in strict application of the term and when somebody might not be a Bona Fide member.

The other question is whether the Essex controller and the appeals committee made the right decision in this particular instance. The diversion of views from people involved with different leagues is not uninteresting but ultimately it is an internal matter for Essex whose officers are (presumably) elected and accountable.
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by David Robertson » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:03 pm

Trevor Coote wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:50 pm
To Alex


How can it be an irrelevant question when the whole topic is what is a BONA FIDE member

if You don't know then just be honest and say so

if you do know enlighten the masses with your vast knowledge however irrelevant you feel it maybe

so just one more time

WHEN DOES DAVID BECOME AN BONA FIDE MEMBER OR IS IT NEVER ?
I SAY, DO WE ALL GET TO PLAY WITH THE FONTS

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:09 pm

I say, can we nitpick grammar as well?

"an bona fide member"??

(Seriously, is some of the ill will here spilling over from the Facebook thread mentioned earlier?)

Trevor Coote
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Trevor Coote » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:10 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:52 pm
Alex is not an official of, or player in, the league in question. Why would he be expected to know what its definition of a bona fide member is?

Jack
Last time I looked Alex Holowczak was the Director of Home Chess although he has resigned with effect from the 13th October 2018. so as an official of ECF I would of thought he may know the answer

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:13 pm

Heh. If you think the different leagues up and down the country would listen to what the Director of Home Chess said... The occupants of that office over the years know better than to get involved in local disputes like that. (They have enough to deal with in the disputes from the competitions they do oversee, such as the Counties Championship [national stages].)

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