What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

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Michael Farthing
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:21 pm

Trevor Coote wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:10 pm
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:52 pm
Alex is not an official of, or player in, the league in question. Why would he be expected to know what its definition of a bona fide member is?

Jack
Last time I looked Alex Holowczak was the Director of Home Chess although he has resigned with effect from the 13th October 2018. so as an official of ECF I would of thought he may know the answer
The ECF is not in charge of your league and does not claim any authority over it - indeed, if it tried that the resulting quarrels and anger would dwarf your own dispute. However, I do find it quite offensive that you have, as a new member of this forum, used your first posts to further a quarrel of your own and have now become quite antagonistic to those that you perceive as not taking your side. The use of large font capital letters is generally considered to be "shouting" on internet forums and is seen as rude by - how may I put It? - bona fide members. Perhaps you were unaware of that convention - but now you are.

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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Trevor Coote » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:26 pm

thank you I was unaware

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Michael Farthing
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:29 pm

No problem then. Thank you for the courteous response.

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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:40 pm

Trevor Coote wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:50 pm
To Alex

How can it be an irrelevant question when the whole topic is what is a BONA FIDE member
It's irrelevant, because you haven't understood my other points about why the rule exists and what it is trying to achieve.

(1) The rule is trying to stop a club fielding a ringer; a strong player to artificially boost your chances of achieving something.
(2) You picked a strong player who hadn't played for you for years in a Cup Semi Final.
(3) This looks, to the detached observer, like you might be fielding a ringer.
(4) There was a dispute.
(5) The Controller ruled on the dispute.

If the player turns up at the start of the season, it doesn't look like you're fielding a ringer. If you're playing in a dead rubber at the end of the season, it doesn't look like you're fielding a ringer. If you're playing in a winner-takes-all promotion/relegation match, it might look like you're fielding a ringer.

These are all judgement calls for the Controller to make, and are entirely dependent on the circumstances of the individual match in question. It isn't a case of becoming eligible or not.

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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:09 pm

"There may have been some upraised eyebrows about the Surrey League Alexander Cup Final and a gap of 44 years between playing a match for our honorary vice president. Our rules = bona fide members. The quality of the games were excellent, as well as the venue, and those supporting the event."

I did wonder if the opposition might complain (I knew John Nunn was an ex-Kingston player, so thought he was obviously eligible). Anyway, you had the League Secretary on your team so you knew he wouldn't declare John ineligible!

Similarly the Brentwood guy was a previous member and had paid a subscription, so I find the ineligibility decision surprising, by which I mean wrong. Redhill played Sutton many years ago and Sutton wheeled out a strong Russian player who was staying with one of the players for a week or so. We never dreamed of complaining.

Essex have yielded the silly argument crown to Surrey in recent years. I congratulate them on this attempt to challenge Surrey.

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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Adam Raoof » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:55 pm

This discussion reminds me about the argument over fielding players in the order of "current playing strength"

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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by J T Melsom » Fri Sep 07, 2018 9:25 pm

We have a registration and nomination process in Bucks. The other year I flagged up with a club a potential problem with the way their teams had been nominated and then they made precisely the mistake I'd warned them about. They then decided to offer an alternative interpretation of the rules. I don't doubt for one moment that the rules may not be the best, or that well worded, but its a bit foolish to think you can change the rules as you go along. Curiously no revision to these 'bad' rules has been proposed by the offending club.

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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:32 pm

What constitutes a bona fide member and what constitutes a ringer aren't the same question. They are different things.
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:49 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:32 pm
What constitutes a bona fide member and what constitutes a ringer aren't the same question. They are different things.
In my experience, people who write this in their rules want the competition to be restricted to genuine members of their club. A ringer, in that context, is not a genuine member of the club.

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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:13 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:49 pm
Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:32 pm
What constitutes a bona fide member and what constitutes a ringer aren't the same question. They are different things.
In my experience, people who write this in their rules want the competition to be restricted to genuine members of their club. A ringer, in that context, is not a genuine member of the club.
And that's the problem. Define a `genuine` member of a club. In fact; it's probably best not to as we could be backwards and forwards forever more. I suspect that for most clubs the constitution simply specifies that they pay a subscription as defined by the AGM. They don't even have to pay it themselves; another member could pay on their behalf or they could be made an honorary member (provided the constitution provides for this).

If you want anti ringer rules then put in clear anti ringer rules (such as no players being admissible in the last match of the season if they haven't played previously). Or else rely on the controller/ appeals panel to make a judgement call in the event of a dispute.

I'll say this. If a strong player joins my club late in the season (or sometimes I might have been working on him to join or come back) then I want to get him (or her) involved. If there are anti ringer rules introduced following underhand practices then it is what it is but I don't get so many new members (of any standard) that I want to be telling them they've got to wait x amount of time before they can join or play in anything.
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by David Haydon » Sat Sep 08, 2018 7:13 am

Clearly bona fide member can’t be defined by anyone. - even the creme de la creme of English chess do not understand it.

But we know for sure that writtle lost in a bona fide way. Instead of accepting their bonafide loss they decided to sulk and run to the controller.

Bona fide winners are Brentwood, that fact can’t be hidden.

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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:19 am

Redhill were once asked for a full list of members by Surrey CCA, who wanted to know if they were "bona fide". The person who asked probably didn't know what it meant, but we pointed out that a bona fide member was whoever we said was a member.

In the specific case we are discussing, it is not as if Brentwood fielded a random person, it was a long-established member. If Dan Bisby (e.g.) happened to be in the area and wanted to play for Redhill, we would not think of him as a ringer, even though he moved away some time ago. We also take the view that if we lose, we lose!

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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by JustinHorton » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:46 am

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:19 am
Redhill were once asked for a full list of members by Surrey CCA, who wanted to know if they were "bona fide". The person who asked probably didn't know what it meant, but we pointed out that a bona fide member was whoever we said was a member.
I appreciate there is some danger of going completely off-topic, but I seem to recall some adventures in the wonderful world of Surrey CCA regarding clubs (well, one particular club) operating very much that kind of loose definition.
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Trevor Coote
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Trevor Coote » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:02 pm

Can anyone tell me when the chess season starts
Is it when the grades come out ?
When the ecf membership has to be renewed by ie 1 September
Or another date

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Michael Farthing
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Re: What is a Bona Fide Member of a Chess Club

Post by Michael Farthing » Sat Sep 08, 2018 4:20 pm

Start of season. A vague concept which could be any of
(i) When your club says it starts
(ii) When your league says it starts
(iii) At the start of the ECF Grading year (1 July, but arguably twice a year and including 1 February :-) )
(iv) At the start of the ECF membership year
Well, you've mentioned half of them in your post!
Take your pick. It doesn't really matter.

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