Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

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Nick Burrows
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Nick Burrows » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:09 am

Steven DuCharme wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:07 am
Chess-db.com has Ivanchuk defeating Tiviakov on 12.18.2004 He then had a 74 game streak.
Tiviakov says they were rapid games.

Not all his games are on Chessgames.com

I bet he's including early rounds of weekenders in his run!

Chris Rice
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Chris Rice » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:20 am

I had a go checking Tiviakov's figures on Mega Database 2018 and without debating whether there were team games and weekenders included I couldn't get anywhere near his figure of 110. After the two losses to Ivanchuk in a rapid on 18 December 2004 I counted a 72 game streak up to his loss against Shabalov on 28 September 2005.
Nick Burrows wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:36 am
Tiviakov lost to Sokolov in July 2004 & to Shabalov in September 2005. Anyone out there with a large database to join the dots?
If we start from the Sokolov loss on 1 July 2004 then there were two defeats after that before the Ivanchuk losses:
27 July 2004 Tiviakov 0-1 Hamelink Dieren Open
27 October 2004 Georgiev 1-0 Tiviakov Calvia Olympiad

Therefore, to try and understand how Tiviakov got to that figure I started counting from the Georgiev game and not including any rapid tournaments ie the Ivanchuk losses, which added a further 16 wins to make 88 still well short. The only other way of getting a definitive list I could think of would be to go on the FIDE site and plod through that period from 2004-5 but that looks like a lot of work.

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Christopher Kreuzer
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Christopher Kreuzer » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:58 pm

Chris Rice wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:20 am
The only other way of getting a definitive list I could think of would be to go on the FIDE site and plod through that period from 2004-5 but that looks like a lot of work.
It wouldn't be that much work would it? If you can do the same for Ding Liren, then that is a way to have a verifiable online record of such claims for FIDE-rated games from July 2000 onwards, and that can be extended back for offline rating lists. Can the same be done for Tal's undefeated sequence? I suspect the other sequences may involved non-FIDE-rated games.

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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Chris Rice » Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:41 pm

So on the day that Ding Liren finally loses his unbeaten record which comes to rest at 100 I thought it best to try and clear up this Tiviakov claim.

I put it to Sergey Tiviakov directly that I was unable to verify his claim and that I'd been through the database and the games were simply not there to back it up, perhaps they were unrated club games as suugested above? His response was "Of course, not all games are in database since in 2004 - 2005 lot of games from different tournaments were not published. ChessBase and Chess-news.ru have my games played. They have verified my record."

Both ChessBase and New in Chess both reference his record claim in numerous interviews and articles but on none of the searches I did was there ever a list or a verification. Nothing at all could I find on chess-news.ru. Significantly, on Wiki's List of World Records the section headed Consecutive games without a loss does not reference Tiviakov's claim, so my feeling is that unless Tiviakov produces the evidence then his claim should not be recognised. Fair enough?

Nick Burrows
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:00 pm

Agreed. What's the issue with him producing a list of results, rather than saying "it was once verified"

Chris Rice
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Chris Rice » Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:34 pm

We've had a few developments. Tiviakov has sent off a file of his 110 games to ChessBase as verification. Here's the article by Macauley Peterson. As you can see Sergey was blocked from trying to enter his record on Wikipedia.

Nick Burrows
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Nick Burrows » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:30 pm

The average rating of Tiviakovs 110 games is probably about 200 elo points lower than Ding's. It's just not comparable. Do we count an unbeaten run at the 2000 fide level?

Mick Norris
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:51 pm

Chris Rice wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 4:41 pm
Significantly, on Wiki's List of World Records the section headed Consecutive games without a loss does not reference Tiviakov's claim
It's back on there tonight
Sergei Tiviakov in 2004-05 - 110 games (57 wins & 53 draws)
Ding Liren in 2017-18 - 100 games (29 wins & 71 draws)
Mikhail Tal in 1973-74 - 95 games (46 wins & 49 draws)
Vladimir Malakhov in 2015-2017 - 93 games (37 wins & 56 draws)
Mikhail Tal in 1972-73 - 86 games (47 wins & 39 draws)
Wang Yue in 2008 - 85 games (30 wins & 55 draws)
Milan Drasko in 2006-07 - 84 games
Vladimir Kramnik in 1999-00 - 82 games
Wesley So in 2016-17 - 67 games (25 wins & 42 draws)
Maxime Vachier-Lagrave in 2015-16 - 67 games (27 wins & 40 draws)
Capablanca during 1916-24 - 63 games (40 wins & 23 draws)
Le Quang Liem in 2016-17 - 59 games (26 wins & 33 draws)
Wesley So in 2014-15 - 54 games (30 wins & 24 draws)
Sam Shankland in 2017-18 - 53 games (25 wins & 28 draws)
Fabiano Caruana in 2016-17 - 50 games (19 wins & 31 draws)
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Chris Rice
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Chris Rice » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:53 pm

So in the space of four hours we've got the 110 games and the entry into Wiki's List of Chess World Records. So case closed then? Well no, I think we've only just got going on the new argument of comparability that Tiviakov played lots of players around the 2000 mark and one who was 1500 whereas Ding Liren only played six players under 2700. However Sergey had a few things to say to those knocking his streak on his FB site :

"There is a clear definition of the record requirements: highest number of the tournament games without a loss. If you are not happy with the strength of the opponents, establish a new record category where players would have to have a minimum elo of being in the top 10 with a defined average elo of the opponents. Only those who fulfil the requirements will be eligible for a record. Also consider rating inflation in all years... So far as I know, there are no rating/strength requirements for the current record! So all the talks and speculations are just the jealous attempts to diminish someone's achievements! My record is a record! End of the story and discussions!"

and

"Also don't forget that playing mostly in the open tournaments is much harder than in the round-robins. In the round-robin the draw is a good result, you don't have to push hard. But in the open tournaments you have to play for a win in every game in order not to finish without a prize. It is a completely different type of chess, when you don't lose in opens, still pushing very hard and taking risk in every tournament, it is really an achievement."

NickFaulks
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:35 pm

Did the list of Tiviakov's 110 games appear somewhere?

Steven DuCharme
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Steven DuCharme » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:39 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:35 pm
Did the list of Tiviakov's 110 games appear somewhere?
please check chessbase.com asap. Thank you :twisted:
I float like a pawn island and sting like an ignored knight :mrgreen:

Chris Rice
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Chris Rice » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:04 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:35 pm
Did the list of Tiviakov's 110 games appear somewhere?
Here's the link again Nick, the file of his games is about halfway through the article.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:47 am

Nick Burrows wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:30 pm
The average rating of Tiviakovs 110 games is probably about 200 elo points lower than Ding's. It's just not comparable. Do we count an unbeaten run at the 2000 fide level?
I don't obviously see why not, if you can find one.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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NickFaulks
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by NickFaulks » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:26 am

Chris Rice wrote:
Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:04 am
Here's the link again Nick, the file of his games is about halfway through the article.
Thanks, I had been there but thought it was just a screenshot rather than a working database.

My only complaint is that the 2005 tournament in Haarlem, where he played 5 games, was not FIDE rated. Of course I do not suggest that unrated games are not games, but the problem is that we cannot be sure that he didn't lose any unrated games during this period. The record of 105 consecutive rated games without a loss looks secure.

Chris Rice
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Re: Ding Liren/Liren Ding...

Post by Chris Rice » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:23 am

With Magnus breaking Ding's 100 games unbeaten record, Tiviakov's 110 game streak has once again arisen as the real claim to the record. Susan Polgar on FB has argued that we shouldn't dismiss Tiviakov's accomplishment. It also appears that the main reason she is defending his record is because there have been similar issues that have been eating away at her for many years:

"There is something I do not understand! Why do some people dismiss the record by GM Sergey Tiviakov, a world-class player, of 110-game unbeaten streak? Not only a number of chess players dismissed this incredible streak, some called him names and insulted him because he spoke up and defended his record.

Please do not get me wrong. The current streak of 101 games by Carlsen is absolutely amazing! I am in awe! And chances are, Carlsen will break this record soon. But who has the right to arbitrarily take away the current record by GM Tiviakov?

The same thing happened in 2014 when Carlsen won the World Blitz and Rapid Championships to complete the very rare Chess Triple Crown. Some of these same people immediately dismissed my achievements, called it meaningless, and insulted me.

I won the Women's World Rapid and Blitz Championships in 1992 (ahead of my sister Judit who was ranked #1 in the world, as well as many other top female players in the world), and the Classical title in 1996. On top of that, I was also the #1 ranked female player when I was 15, and won multiple Olympiad Team and Individual Gold Medals (I never lost in 56 Olympiad games, all on board 1). No one, male or female, has won all 6 of these top crowns (Classical, Rapid, Blitz, Team and Individual Olympiad Gold and #1 ranking).

Who has the right to play Chess God and decide what achievements are good and what are meaningless? By the way, here is the list of 110 opponents GM Tiviakov faced, many were strong GMs, including a win against Magnus Carlsen!"

Tiviakov,S 2617 Berg,E 2529 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2617 Schenk Papke,A 2102 1–0
Wendt,J 2296 Tiviakov,S 2617 0–1
Pogorelov,R 2439 Tiviakov,S 2617 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2617 Barsov,A 2471 ½–½
Valdes,L 2372 Tiviakov,S 2617 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2617 Wohl,A 2359 ½–½
Kovacevic,S 2367 Tiviakov,S 2617 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2617 Del Rio Angelis,S 2491 1–0
Sopur,L 2287 Tiviakov,S 2617 0–1
Carrasco Martinez,J 2408 Tiviakov,S 2617 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2617 Rahal,M 2416 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2617 Granados Gomez,M 2425 1–0
Garcia Padron,J 2429 Tiviakov,S 2617 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2617 Baron Rodriguez,J 2432 1–0
Fernandez Garcia,J 2479 Tiviakov,S 2617 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2617 Gravel,S 2255 1–0
Pupo,E 2375 Tiviakov,S 2617 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2617 Martinez,I 2371 1–0
Zapata,A 2504 Tiviakov,S 2617 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2617 Sulskis,S 2555 ½–½
Hernandez,H 2473 Tiviakov,S 2617 ½–½
Hernandez,G 2509 Tiviakov,S 2617 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2617 Hernandez,G 2509 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2617 Ivanchuk,V 2705 ½–½
Ivanchuk,V 2705 Tiviakov,S 2617 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2627 Bareev,E 2709 ½–½
Dierich,J 2087 Tiviakov,S 2627 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2627 Garbe,R 2195 1–0
Hedke,F 2337 Tiviakov,S 2627 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2627 Espig,L 2432 1–0
Postny,E 2557 Tiviakov,S 2627 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2627 Levin,F 2498 ½–½
Wang Rui 2478 Tiviakov,S 2627 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2627 Zhang,P 2560 ½–½
Kveinys,A 2518 Tiviakov,S 2627 ½–½
Janssen,R 2482 Tiviakov,S 2627 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2631 Carlsen,M 2548 1–0
Korneev,O 2611 Tiviakov,S 2631 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2631 Williams,S 2466 1–0
Vidoniak,R 2417 Tiviakov,S 2631 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2631 Bogner,S 2409 1–0
Nordahl,H 2402 Tiviakov,S 2631 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2631 Pedersen,C 2396 1–0
Lie,K 2495 Tiviakov,S 2631 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2631 Kulaots,K 2572 1–0
Tiviakov,S 2631 Van Wely,L 2687 1–0
Fridman,D 2562 Tiviakov,S 2631 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2631 Castano,D 2332 1–0
Dobrov,V 2521 Tiviakov,S 2631 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2631 Korneev,O 2611 ½–½
Rivera,A 2381 Tiviakov,S 2631 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2531 Cuartas,J 2447 1–0
Garcia,G 2452 Tiviakov,S 2631 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2631 Jonkman,H 2428 1–0
Cordova,E 2384 Tiviakov,S 2631 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2631 Granda Zuniga,J 2608 ½–½
Bartolozzi,R 2126 Tiviakov,S 2631 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2631 Aldrovandi,C 2246 1–0
Aleksic,N 2396 Tiviakov,S 2631 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2631 Ranola,Y 2467 1–0
Maksimenko,A 2510 Tiviakov,S 2631 ½–½
Zaja,I 2489 Tiviakov,S 2631 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2631 Czarnota,P 2478 1–0
Potkin,V 2552 Tiviakov,S 2631 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2631 Nyback,T 2551 1–0
Tiviakov,S 2631 Neverov,V 2566 1–0
Ivanchuk,V 2739 Tiviakov,S 2631 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2631 Radjabov,T 2673 ½–½
Parligras,M 2560 Tiviakov,S 2631 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2631 Cao Sang 2536 1–0
Dreev,A 2705 Tiviakov,S 2631 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2631 Aronian,L 2693 ½–½
Balogh,C 2531 Tiviakov,S 2631 ½–½
Sokolov,I 2662 Tiviakov,S 2631 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2678 Op Den Kelder,J 2184 1–0
Groffen,H 2210 Tiviakov,S 2678 ½–½
Swinkels,R 2291 Tiviakov,S 2678 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2678 Peelen,P 2357 1–0
Tiviakov,S 2678 Nijboer,F 2529 ½–½
Nedev,T 2530 Tiviakov,S 2678 ½–½
Smirin,I 2652 Tiviakov,S 2678 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2678 Vaganian,R 2614 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2678 Dreev,A 2698 1–0
Tiviakov,S 2678 Banikas,H 2548 1–0
Wojtaszek,R 2591 Tiviakov,S 2678 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2678 Basas Gamazo,J 2062 1–0
Baquero,L 2301 Tiviakov,S 2678 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2678 Almeida,O 2462 ½–½
Barrientos,S 2433 Tiviakov,S 2678 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2678 Vehi Bach,V 2404 1–0
Grigore,G 2479 Tiviakov,S 2678 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2678 Horvath,C 2542 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2678 Parligras,M 2571 1–0
Fedorchuk,S 2571 Tiviakov,S 2678 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2678 Smeets,J 2537 ½–½
Van den Doel,E 2587 Tiviakov,S 2678 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2678 L'Ami,E 2519 ½–½
Stellwagen,D 2533 Tiviakov,S 2678 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2678 Werle,J 2514 1–0
Ernst,S 2457 Tiviakov,S 2678 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2678 Janssen,R 2501 ½–½
Nijboer,F 2529 Tiviakov,S 2678 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2678 Van Wely,L 2655 ½–½
Tiviakov,S 2678 Cox,J 2385 1–0
Howell,D 2471 Tiviakov,S 2678 0–1
Tiviakov,S 2678 Gormally,D 2557 1–0
Korneev,O 2594 Tiviakov,S 2678 ½–½

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