Prize Money is Out of Control

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Roger de Coverly
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Re: Prize Money is Out of Control

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:12 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:42 pm
I wanted to find how much tax was paid on the prize money
These may be relevant

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pay-tax-in- ... -performer

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pay-tax-on- ... performers

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/pay-tax-on- ... olding-tax

Notice how they classify chess as a sport in this list. Perhaps there's not enough prize money in Bridge, as they don't feature.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Prize Money is Out of Control

Post by Roger Lancaster » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:35 pm

Yes, it's mildly interesting that chess is a sport for taxation purposes but, when the proceeds of all that taxation are redistributed, a government quango (Sports Council) finds that chess isn't a sport and consequently doesn't qualify.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Prize Money is Out of Control

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:59 pm

Hi Nick,

I was told they are happy I cannot find the sponsor because it is a donation so they have no need to say who donated it.
(which basically sunk me with one shot. I cannot tell people what to donate to - I can disagree with it, that is all.)

And with no name, and not a sponsor, nothing to follow up on regarding tax wise. A dead end.

I suppose I could write to the tax people saying 'The Fantastic Four' were paid a lot of money.
Were they taxed and if not, why not, and if so can we have our grant back, you can keep the rest.

They of course will bring out the data protection act and tell me to go jump in the lake.

I will remind them I gave up the best 9 years of my life defending Queen and country...and the data protection act.

(I could have used those 9 years studying endings so I too could play games with "high-level endgame technique and subtle defensive resources." )

They will reply: "The lake Mr. Chandler...it is beckoning."

Plan A:

I could tell my Tiger Cubs to start eating junk food, read recently some clinic with a posh name is using funding to help
overweight kids lose weight. I could fatten my crew up, rename them 'The Tiger Tubbies' and watch the money roll in.

Ian Thompson
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Re: Prize Money is Out of Control

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Dec 20, 2018 3:37 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:59 pm
I was told they are happy I cannot find the sponsor because it is a donation so they have no need to say who donated it.
It's hardly a closely guarded secret - the London Chess Classic named the sponsor in one of their press releases and that information was posted on this forum.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Prize Money is Out of Control

Post by Geoff Chandler » Fri Dec 21, 2018 1:35 pm

Hi Ian,

"It's hardly a closely guarded secret...."

So why are you keeping it a secret by not naming them.

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Joey Stewart
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Re: Prize Money is Out of Control

Post by Joey Stewart » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:25 pm

I totally agree with chess being far too 'top heavy' in its monetisation - people might draw the parallel with football and the millions their top guys make, but three big difference there is that the guys in lower leagues are still recieving very respectable salaries (in almost all leagues footballers earn more in a week then a normal person gets in a month).

If you take the 4ncl as an example, only a handful of players get paid at all and everyone else has to pay to play. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if the ECF stopped wasting money on big chess holidays in Europe and put that into the 4ncl instead I'm sure more people would consider their membership fees well used
Lose one queen and it is a disaster, Lose 1000 queens and it is just a statistic.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Prize Money is Out of Control

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:32 pm

Joey Stewart wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:25 pm
if the ECF stopped wasting money on big chess holidays in Europe and put that into the 4ncl instead
What did you mean by "big chess holidays"? If you are thinking of the numerous junior events, the expenses for these are paid for by the parents or other supporters of the participants. The John Robinson grants come from a charity which isn't directly controlled by the ECF which could only support the 4NCL under limited circumstances.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Prize Money is Out of Control

Post by Geoff Chandler » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:53 pm

Hi Joey,

I dislike comparing chess with other sports. It's completely different.

A famous game of football was England beating West Germany 4-2 in 1966.
A famous boxing match was the 'Rumble in the Jungle' between Muhammad Ali and George Foreman in 1974.

The most famous game of chess was played between three(!) members of an audience sitting in an Opera Box in 1858.

And it's still the most famous game of chess. None of the games played by the 'Fantastic Four' produced anything memorable.
They turned up, went through the motions and skipped off with a quarter of a £million split between them.
Veni, Vidi and I pocketed a load of cash for doing nothing special.

That is why Roger this sum of money paid out to the 'Fantastic Four' was so disappointing. Chess at the
coalface has to depend on donations, hand outs, charity and a small army of unpaid dedicated volunteers.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Prize Money is Out of Control

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:24 pm

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:53 pm

That is why Roger this sum of money paid out to the 'Fantastic Four' was so disappointing. Chess at the
coalface has to depend on donations, hand outs, charity and a small army of unpaid dedicated volunteers.
Whether the sponsor considered it value for their money is something only they will know. However since your point seems to be that grassroots chess should receive more investment might I politely suggest that you consider how that investment could and should best be used and then put on a professional front to approach a sponsor.
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Nick Grey
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Re: Prize Money is Out of Control

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Jan 02, 2019 11:31 pm

Geoff I think you ought to approach local sponsors for your local pet chess projects first. Good luck with that.
On large sponsorships it is for others.
I do not think the coalface is appropriate or that prize money is relevant to grassroots chess in this country.

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Prize Money is Out of Control

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:04 am

Hi Andrew,

I'm way ahead of you. The letter has been drafted.

Dear Sir,

Please give me £250,000 so I can give it to four chess players who you have probably never heard of.
They will play two normal games of chess then some speed chess. The whole thing should take 6-7 days.

I will nickname them the 'Fantastic Four' (pretty catchy eh?) you in return will get complete anonymity.

Yours etc...etc...

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Prize Money is Out of Control

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:14 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:04 am
Hi Andrew,

I'm way ahead of you. The letter has been drafted.

Dear Sir,

Please give me £250,000 so I can give it to four chess players who you have probably never heard of.
They will play two normal games of chess then some speed chess. The whole thing should take 6-7 days.

I will nickname them the 'Fantastic Four' (pretty catchy eh?) you in return will get complete anonymity.

Yours etc...etc...
No, you're actually about a hundred miles behind. Having got this bee in your bonnet about the `fantastic four` receiving what you think is an obsessive amount of money you just want to whine about that forever more. There are reasons grassroots chess does not get the investment it needs and this response to what was an attempt at a serious discussions shows they have rather more to do with you than they have with the fantastic four.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Geoff Chandler
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Re: Prize Money is Out of Control

Post by Geoff Chandler » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:32 am

Hi Andrew,

"..receiving what you think is an obsessive amount of money "

I am not alone. I am just the loudest....the whinniest.

Obviously some people think it's OK that the 'Fantastic Four' got the money they did. Some do not.
(it's probably a grading thing...look how high their rating is....they deserve it.)

Do you not think it is an obsessive amount of money for what little they did. I do. I Whine.

You are correct, I do have a bee in my bonnet. Every time a club closes or a tournament ceases due to lack of funding
or another chess federation has it's government funding cut to zero then the case of the 'Fantastic Four' will re-emerge.

(If you want a serious discussion on this matter of grass roots funding then start your own thread. I will not butt in.)

Andy McCulloch
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Re: Prize Money is Out of Control

Post by Andy McCulloch » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:38 am

Obsessive? I think you really meant obscene Andrew.
To be honest I have to agree with Geoff, the money available to the 'top echelon' of chess players is out of proportion to the benefit they provide to the chess playing public.
The London Classic this year provided little in the way of entertainment, all classical games drawn, tournament decided by rapid and blitz games. Not even the excitement of a Leicester type win to enthral us.
Even the way the players reached the 'finals' is a bit of a closed shop. (No Leicester equivalent allowed entrance)
I seem to recall that in 2017 Vladimir Kramnick played in his first Open tournament in 20 years. I doubt if any of the 'top' players have played in many Open events (excepting national championships) in any of the last 5 years.

David Sedgwick
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Re: Prize Money is Out of Control

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:44 am

Geoff Chandler wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:32 am
(If you want a serious discussion on this matter of grass roots funding then start your own thread. I will not butt in.)
That is an attractive offer which I encourage Andrew to take up.

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