Coaching

Discussions regarding the 70,000 Free Chess Sets for Schools in England.
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Sean Hewitt

Re: Coaching

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:28 pm

Peter Turner wrote: I suspect that Nick remembers that when BCF was an Umbrella Body it was a requirement that a candidate for disclosure had to be seen by an authorised person from the BCF to prove their identity and postal address. The proceedures were strict as laid down by the CRB. Has it now been dumbed down so that this does not now happen. Should this be the case it is open to fraud!!
For the avoidance of doubt, the regulations laid down regarding identification are set by the Criminal Records Bureau regardless of which umbrella body is sponsoring the application. There is, and never has been, a requirement for the person being checked to appear in person, although its a common misaprehension that this in fact is / was the case. There is a requirement for three specific items of original identification documents to be produced either in person to someone authorised by the umbrella body and CRB unit (I for example am so authorised by The Media Group who do CRB checks for The Football Association and also, coincidentally, the ECF). Alternatively, documents can simply be posted to the umbrella body. I recently posted my ID to TMG as obviously I cannot certify my own documents!

Peter Turner
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Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:57 pm

Re: Coaching

Post by Peter Turner » Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:38 pm

Sean

Previously as an Umbrella Body BCF had a policy of meeting with the person to be CRB checked. The BCF were required to nominate two people who were authorised to verify identities. I believe they were The CEO Roy Heppinstall and President Gerry Walsh.

Peter Turner
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:57 pm

Re: Coaching

Post by Peter Turner » Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:41 pm

Sean your information is most valuable. Could you let us know what costs are involved and how is the distinction made between voluntary and paid work?

Thanks

Peter Turner
Posts: 393
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:57 pm

Re: Coaching

Post by Peter Turner » Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:54 pm

I've looked it up on the Media Group website. Volunteer £14 paid £50.

Matthew Turner
Posts: 2800
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Coaching

Post by Matthew Turner » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:02 pm

At the moment, I feel there are only really two alternatives. Either you go with a scheme similar to Andrew's or you go with no scheme at all. I am very unsure as to which of these options is best. Is Andy's scheme really going to get more people teaching chess in schools? - if they wanted to teach chess wouldn't they be doing it already?
Nick is also absolutely right, assistant coaches will approach schools, saying look you can trust me, I am accredited by the National Body. Many schools will check the suitability of the coach, but some will not. If anything went wrong this could be big problems for everybody.
However, I'm not sure what is achieved by an ECF official meeting the person, what if they are a bit dodgy? What then? Turn down their application - for what reason? is this legal?
Over the longer term you need to combine accreditation with training, perhaps with coaches qualifying over a week's residential course. I basically made no progress in this area and I wish Andy all the best of luck. It is a hugely complicated area and it is actually personally risky for the person in charge. Other organisations pay people big bucks to implement these key structural changes and perhaps that is what the ECF needs to consider.

Sean Hewitt

Re: Coaching

Post by Sean Hewitt » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:13 pm

Peter Turner wrote:Sean your information is most valuable. Could you let us know what costs are involved and how is the distinction made between voluntary and paid work?
Thanks
Peter - In footballing terms the distiction is whether a profit is made from the game. For example in refereeing (my field) local parks referee gets £20 - £30 per game. However, this is considered to be "expenses" including travel, kit, washing etc and so a referee at this level is still considered a volunteer for CRB purposes. I suspect a coach who does an hour at the local school for £10-£20 would be similarly considered. Only referees who officiate on the football league (where the fees are a few hundred quid per game) are considered to engage in paid work and pay accordingly for their CRB. Perhaps this equates to those who could live off of their chess earnings. I dont know if there is a "legal" definition though.

The volunteer pays £12.50 for his Football Associaiton CRB check (the admin fee) whilst the "professional" pays £66 I think (which is the cost of the check plus the admin fee).
Peter Turner wrote:Sean
Previously as an Umbrella Body BCF had a policy of meeting with the person to be CRB checked. The BCF were required to nominate two people who were authorised to verify identities. I believe they were The CEO Roy Heppinstall and President Gerry Walsh.
I dont doubt that the BCF did this, but it was totally unneccessary! What did someone who didnt live near Gerry / Roy do?!
Last edited by Sean Hewitt on Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

andrew martin

Re: Coaching

Post by andrew martin » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:15 pm

Nick,

Thanks for the reply.

Lets say the 9000 schools all get the 10 free chess sets and that (say) 5000 of them had no teachers or parents who knew anything about the game.

What would YOU do to assist the situation? What are your plans?

You say that my statement is naive. According to you,schools are going to place assistant coaches in charge of classes of children without any vetting or supervision whatsover. That's not correct. ALL schools ask new employees ( or assistants)to provide CRB details,references and proof of identity. Which schools are you referring to which do not?

Matthew Turner
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Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Coaching

Post by Matthew Turner » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:28 pm

Andy,
Why does this coaching assistant title enable people to go into schools? Surely, if a school had 10 new sets and a parent or teacher wanted to teach chess, then the school would carry out the necessary checks and off they go.

Matthew Turner
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Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Coaching

Post by Matthew Turner » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:30 pm

Andy,
I guess what I am asking is how does the coaching assistant qualification take people from knowing nothing about the game to knowing the basics to be able to teach them

andrew martin

Re: Coaching

Post by andrew martin » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:40 pm

I am enjoying the debate.

Now it's my turn to make a request:

Give me some workable,practical plans to address the situation.

Nick Thomas
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:56 pm

Re: Coaching

Post by Nick Thomas » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:41 pm

Andrew. Your very defensive reply implies that you are taking this personally. It is not meant to be attack on you just on this hair brained scheme. I also detect a shade of "I know it's fairly rubbish but at least I'm trying to do something". Fair enough but you should think very carefully before stamping your approval on this scheme.

All schools should (and the vast majority will) ask to see a persons CRB and proof of ID. Almost none will ask for references. Most are far too busy and will trust that the ECF Coaching "qualification" is a qualification to "coach" children. Again almost none will consider supervision necessary. I would be surprised if you are able to find anyone with extensive experience running after school clubs in state schools to contradict this.

Nick Thomas
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:56 pm

Re: Coaching

Post by Nick Thomas » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:43 pm

Give me some workable,practical plans to address the situation.
I understood that £100K was allocated to Chess In Schools. Wasn't part of the plan to get academies to train coaches?

Nick Thomas
Posts: 455
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 9:56 pm

Re: Coaching

Post by Nick Thomas » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:46 pm

Matt Turner says
assistant coaches will approach schools, saying look you can trust me, I am accredited by the National Body
No Matt it's worse than that. They will say "I am QUALIFIED as a chess coach by the National Body"

Matthew Turner
Posts: 2800
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 11:54 am

Re: Coaching

Post by Matthew Turner » Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:50 pm

Andy,
I don't particular have any answers and if the on-line exam is accompanied by extensive notes which allow a teacher or parent to pick up the basics, which can then be used in the classroom then I think it is a great idea. They can evaluate how well they have understood the information by taking an exam - this is how education works. However, it is you who are claiming that the coaching assistant qualification will take somebody from knowing nothing to knowing the basics - great, but this requires more than just an exam.
I would also say, that if all this information is going to be available then five pounds for the qualification is neither realistic or sensible.

andrew martin

Re: Coaching

Post by andrew martin » Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:01 pm

The ECF will shortly release details of its support package for schools. This will include:

• Teaching DVD

• Copies of the ECF Guide To Chess

• Chess in the Classroom

• Information regarding Certificate of Merit

• “The Right Move” – Monthly magazine circulated by e-mail, aimed at young players. It includes puzzles that can be downloaded for solving in the school club and details of coming events and courses.

• Assistant Coach / ECF Membership

• Other items TBC

Chris Majer Gerry Walsh
ECF Chief Executive ECF President

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