British championship grading sections in the main event

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger de Coverly
Posts: 16729
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:53 pm

Keith Arkell wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:01 pm
there are a number of players graded around 180 to 200 ECF who have FIDE ratings which are far too low.
That's at least in part due to the different treatment of junior players. In the ECF system they are treated as new players each year, which minimises the impact of having players with 140 grades getting 190 results. Although the FIDE K=40 is intended to have a similar effect, in practice many English juniors don't play often enough in rated games to have their improvement recognised in the ratings given. There's a knock on effect on adults who play juniors with ratings below their strength. It randomises Swiss pairings as well.

Nick Grey
Posts: 761
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:16 am

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Nick Grey » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:28 pm

If the bottom grading prize was U2200 £250 it would not cost the organisers any extra funds.

I'm happy with a premium extra charge for low rated players even if they are under-rated..

NickFaulks
Posts: 4052
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:28 pm

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:02 am

Keith Arkell wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:01 pm
With rating prizes being calculated using W-We, it is important that players ratings are an accurate reflection of their playing ability.
The problem now faced is what happens when you combine a membership structure designed to discourage FIDE rated chess with national competitions based on FIDE ratings. You can have one or the other, but not both.

If you insist on having both, there is no good solution. Telling one group of players that they will not be eligible for any rating prize at all still seems like a particularly bad one.

Thomas Rendle
Posts: 241
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:31 am

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Thomas Rendle » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:36 am

Surely the simplest solution is to say 'for the purposes of calculating prizes, ratings <2050 will be counted as 2050.'

David Robertson
Posts: 1792
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:24 pm
Contact:

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by David Robertson » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:42 am

Thomas Rendle wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:36 am
Surely the simplest solution is to say 'for the purposes of calculating prizes, ratings <2050 will be counted as 2050.'
Pfft. That's far too 'bleedin' obvious'

Brian Valentine
Posts: 374
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:30 pm

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Brian Valentine » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:08 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:02 am
Keith Arkell wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:01 pm
With rating prizes being calculated using W-We, it is important that players ratings are an accurate reflection of their playing ability.
The problem now faced is what happens when you combine a membership structure designed to discourage FIDE rated chess with national competitions based on FIDE ratings. You can have one or the other, but not both.

If you insist on having both, there is no good solution. Telling one group of players that they will not be eligible for any rating prize at all still seems like a particularly bad one.
While the membership structure can be argued as an impediment to FIDE rated chess, I fear it is not the biggest road block. The problems are around the way English chess is played. The rate of play issues, especially the first time control of 40 moves and the enjoyment of adjudications, limit the conversion of evening league chess to the FIDE structure. I don't think the amount of congress chess that is not now FIDE rated would change the picture that much (not that I have done a detailed analysis).

User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 2418
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:02 pm

Adjudications are (finally) on their way out now, surely?
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Angus French
Posts: 1449
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 1:37 am
Contact:

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Angus French » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:16 pm

Brian Valentine wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:08 pm
... The rate of play issues, especially the first time control of 40 moves and the enjoyment of adjudications, limit the conversion of evening league chess to the FIDE structure...
Are there *any* evening leagues in England which are FIDE-rated?

While adjudications may be an impediment to rating an evening league I should have thought there were other, likely more important, blockers:
- the need for either a four-hour playing session or to restrict participation to players rated under 2200 (in which case a playing session of a minimum of three hours applies);
- the need for ECF Gold membership (or payment of a Pay-to-Play fee); and
- the need for players to be FIDE-registered or else to provide their date-of-birth and accept automatic registration through the ECF (and any consequent exorbitant transfer fee to switch to another national federation).

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 3634
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:17 pm

Angus French wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:16 pm
Are there *any* evening leagues in England which are FIDE-rated?
I think Coulsdon run some internal competitions structured as team events, and those are FIDE-rated. That's all I know of.

Angus French
Posts: 1449
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 1:37 am
Contact:

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Angus French » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:22 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:17 pm
Angus French wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:16 pm
Are there *any* evening leagues in England which are FIDE-rated?
I think Coulsdon run some internal competitions structured as team events, and those are FIDE-rated. That's all I know of.
Oh yes, I knew that was true but had forgotten.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 16729
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:36 pm

Brian Valentine wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:08 pm
the first time control of 40 moves
What was and wasn't programmed into the 1990s DGTs was relevant. When Kirsan demanded that chess had to be quicker, the initial suggestion was that the move rate should be 40 moves in 90 minutes with an extra 15, with an increment from move 40 to eliminate the arbiter ability to rule on unable or not trying to win by "normal" means. When it was pointed out that FIDE's "official" clock didn't support this, the rate of ninety minutes with thirty second increments was mandated.

Long, long ago, the FIDE move rate would be 40 moves in 150 minutes. A revival of that might be all moves in 130 minutes plus 30 second increments.

If you have a finite playing time, dividing it between the players is a completely reasonable solution, so intermediate time controls aren't necessary once you move beyond the notion of the game terminating with an adjudication as to who was winning, or pausing the game for analysis as in adjournments.

Stewart Reuben
Posts: 3612
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:04 pm
Location: writer

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Stewart Reuben » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:35 am

Thomas Rendle > Surely the simplest solution is to say 'for the purposes of calculating prizes, ratings <2050 will be counted as 2050.'<


Actually that would be laborious. The results of each such player would have to be calculated separately for each game. Yes, somebody could write a computer programme to achieve that objective.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 16729
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:06 am

Stewart Reuben wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:35 am
Yes, somebody could write a computer programme to achieve that objective.
I thought they already had as it's the existence of tournament management software that makes possible this dubious way of awarding rating prizes in the first place. Hint, run a rating report on a copy of the existing data with all players below X reset to X.

Alex McFarlane
Posts: 1369
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:52 pm

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Alex McFarlane » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:43 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:06 am
Hint, run a rating report on a copy of the existing data with all players below X reset to X.
Assuming those people want to know how they are getting on each round it is not as easy as it may seem.

If you simply change all the people below the threshold then you could get someone who played a 2100 finishing erroneously behind someone who played a 1700 as they would count the same.

In addition you would need to recalculate each player below the threshold individually and not in a batch as the effect of them playing each other cannot be discounted.

Roger's suggested process is not as trivial as it first appears.

The above assumes that the rating prize is awarded on rating performance.

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 16729
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: British championship grading sections in the main event

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:57 am

Alex McFarlane wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:43 am

The above assumes that the rating prize is awarded on rating performance.
It was the (W-We) form of rating prize. This has the feature that if two players make the same score against the same average opposition, the rating prize goes to the lower rated of the two. If you reset their rating to a minimum, this feature disappears.

Another approach would be to set everyone below a rating of X to X for the purposes of pairing and tournament cross tables. This would then make the ranking of lower rated players be based on alphabetic order.

Post Reply