ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

[Christopher Kreuzer]

To get back to the topic, I'm still unclear on one point.

(Quoting myself from earlier) "I hope that only active players who are in arrears with payments will be de-registered, and not those who have not played any rated games in the last year (but are not yet listed as inactive on the FIDE lists)."

I assume that it is only players who have played rated games in the past year and not paid ECF membership that will be de-registered. However, I'm not 100% on this. Can it be confirmed that where an ENG-registered player has played no FIDE rated games in the past year, that they don't need to pay ECF membership to avoid the de-registration that Adam was referring to in the first post? Or is this being back-dated over a possible period of several years of activity (I have no clue how long it takes for FIDE to move someone from active to inactive)?

[Roger de Coverly]

It does show the level of stupidity when people are arguing about signing a form which might make them liable to pay £1

Needing to sign the form gets in the way of the ECF being able to offer instant on-line membership. For that matter it created a major and unnecessary row between the NCCU and the ECF. So I don't think arguing about the form is in any way stupid.

[Roger de Coverly]

I assume that it is only players who have played rated games in the past year and not paid ECF membership that will be de-registered. However, I'm not 100% on this. Can it be confirmed that where an ENG-registered player has played no FIDE rated games in the past year, that they don't need to pay ECF membership to avoid the de-registration that Adam was referring to in the first post? Or is this being back-dated over a possible period of several years of activity (I have no clue how long it takes for FIDE to move someone from active to inactive)?

I wouldn't be sure about this either. You may have to check some actual cases. As a plausible hypothesis, let's suppose you last played 1st July 2010. You would show up on FIDE's 1st September 2010 list as active with a new rating . Your ECF membership might have expired 31st August 2010. I suspect the earliest you would appear as inactive on the FIDE list would be 1st September 2011. If it was 1st July 2011, you might become inactive whilst playing in your only annual event. So there is scope to be "active" by FIDE's definition but not a member of the ECF.

As you pointed out earlier, life changes can force the most active players into temporary inactivity. If the ECF want to retain player goodwill, trashing their rating or rating history is hardly a good way of going about it.

And all this because of an expense of 1 Euro a year per player !

[Alan Walton]

I maybe wrong but the way I gather it will work is as follows

a) Player doesn't pay his annual membership fee
b) ECF contact FIDE not to rate any of his future games and thus make him inactive
c) Players' rating is frozen at that moment and never moves
d) Four years later player decides to pay membership fee
e) ECF contact FIDE to rate future games
f) Rating is unfrozen and next games/tournament played the player become active again

[Roger de Coverly]

c) Players' rating is frozen at that moment and never moves

f) Rating is unfrozen and next games/tournament played the player become active again

Being a traditional Elo system, as opposed to a Glicko, a player without any games in the International system automatically has their rating frozen.

The threat may be to remove it entirely. It would appear FIDE currently only do this where the entire Federation is suspended for outstanding debts, or where there's a dispute between the national Federation and the player. The evidence produced by Sean regarding one of the players at e2e4 events is that individuals can still play and FIDE's rating office will tell organisers what the rating should have been.

[Christopher Kreuzer]

The term used by Adam was "de-registered". What precisely does that mean?

[Roger de Coverly]

The term used by Adam was "de-registered". What precisely does that mean?

Pages ago, Loz showed us this

http://ratings.fide.com/seek.phtml?idco ... r&offset=0

and Sean these

http://ratings.fide.com/individual_calc ... 2011-07-01
http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=8500797

Some variation on these themes presumably.

MaxDev is still a member, so in theory he could protest via one of his Direct Member reps on Council.

[Roger de Coverly]

MaxDev is still a member, so in theory he could protest via one of his Direct Member reps on Council.

I think Adam is on dodgy ground if he excludes people like Max (if he gave up ECF membership) and Harry Lamb because both are in fact members of national chess Federations through their clubs.

The relevant section of the Handbook being

13.1

To be included in the FRL or FIDE Rapidplay Rating list, a player must be a member of a national chess Federation which is a member of FIDE. That is, the Federation must not be temporarily or permanently excluded from membership.

Note that it doesn't say you have to be a member of the Federation with which you are tagged. a national chess Federation is what it says, not his, her or their.

Enough grounds for a challenge anyway !

[Ian Thompson]

I think Adam is on dodgy ground if he excludes people like Max (if he gave up ECF membership) and Harry Lamb because both are in fact members of national chess Federations through their clubs.

The relevant section of the Handbook being

13.1

To be included in the FRL or FIDE Rapidplay Rating list, a player must be a member of a national chess Federation which is a member of FIDE. That is, the Federation must not be temporarily or permanently excluded from membership.

Note that it doesn't say you have to be a member of the Federation with which you are tagged. a national chess Federation is what it says, not his, her or their.

Enough grounds for a challenge anyway !

I made the same point in June 2005 when the BCF stated that they would not submit 4NCL rating data for the season just finished for English players who were not BCF members.

I believe I am eligible to be included in the FIDE rating list, as the FIDE Handbook Section 16.1 says "To be included in the FRL or FIDE Rapidplay Rating list, a player must be a member of a national chess Federation which is a member of FIDE." I am a current USCF member (Membership No: 12822079, which can be verified at http://www.uschess.org/msa/MbrDtlMain.php?12822079 if you wish).

The response was:

Regarding your case, as you are registered for England I don't accept USCF membership as pertinent.

[Stewart Reuben]

People look at regulations and then select the one that fits their pet idea.

B.02.13.0. Inclusion in the Rating list.

13.1 To be included in the FRL, a player must be a member of a national chess Federation which is a member of FIDE. That is, the Federation must not be temporarily or permanently excluded from membership.

13.2 It is the responsibility of national Federations to inform FIDE if players should not be included in the FRL.

13.3 Any player excluded from either rating list because he is unable to obtain membership of a national Federation, may apply to FIDE for special dispensation to be included.

Thus the ECF is going to say to FIDE, about FIDE active non-members who are registered as ENG, don't include then in the FIDE Rating List. It can also be done about people who, for example, are proven cheats. FIDE will follow this instruction.
The normal thing to do would be, if an ENG player were FIDE active, to communicate with him to warn him, that, if he does not resume or become a member without good reason, then the ECF will enact 13.2. A good reason might, in the opinion of the officer in charge, be that the player couldn't afford the fee. It is not a good reason to say, 'I am happy for the ECF to spend money on supporting my and everybody else's international chess, but do not want to contribute a membership fee.

We have to be careful about restraint of trade. But a player can register for a different federation, if he fulfils the regulations.

Richard Lobo (the older one) has remained registered for ENG, although he has lived in the US for about 30 years. This is because it helps him get invitations when they need a foreign player. I arranged for him to pay his membership fee. He offered no argument. I hope he is still a member. If not, it would be because of lack of chasing. Max Devereux may find it is similarly advantageous for him in due course.

The ECF has also offered shelter for players from time to time. IM Harandi Iran became ENG for a year when chess had been banned in hi country and he wanted to player in the Lloyds Bank Masters. South Africans played in the Hastings Challengers sometimes when SA was banned from FIDE. They played under the ENG flag of convenience.

Stewart Reuben

[Roger de Coverly]

We have to be careful about restraint of trade. But a player can register for a different federation, if he fulfils the regulations.
Stewart Reuben

With the new transfer regulations, it's no longer easy or cheap. So what is the message to ex-pats?

It will cost you loads of money to remain a member of the ECF but also loads of money to transfer.

If Max is living in Norway and playing in local leagues, then he has already become a member of the Norwegian Federation. If the ECF remove his rating, cannot they object? What would the ECF do if Chess Scotland removed the rating of an ECF member?

[Stewart Reuben]

Roger >It will cost you loads of money to remain a member of the ECF<

Rubbish. It will cost you a little money £18 a year is one proposal. The argument is whether it is enough to make it worthwihle to collect, not that the amount is too high. If membership were £1000 a year I might agree with you.

>but also loads of money to transfer<. That is a FIDE Regulation. If you dislike it why not make a proposal to change it through the ECF?

Take 13.1 To be included in the FRL, a player must be a member of a national chess Federation which is a member of FIDE.
Clearly it should read 'To be included in the FRL, a player must be a member of the national chess Federation to which they are assigned in the FIDE Rating List.' I have never bothered to get it changed because, as I have written many times, FIDE have no means of checking on membership.

Stewart Reuben

[Roger de Coverly]

Rubbish. It will cost you a little money £18 a year is one proposal

The amount in 2011-12 is £ 27. There is an outline proposal that it would be £ 18 for 2012-13. There are also hints or rumours that it might be as much as £ 30 in 2012-13 if a tiered membership proposal has any support.

I now see the ECF strategy for January/February 2013 but I'll keep it as an unpublished outline for the time being.

[E Michael White]

Some players have been registered as ENG where the player could have chosen to be registered by one or more other Federations. For example those born abroad, or who have a parent/grand parent of foreign nationality, can usually elect to play for whichever of those countries they wish in games/sports recognised by the IOC as in the case of chess.

In some of these cases the players were simply registered as ENG by the tournament controllers/arbiter in their first event on behalf of the ECF/BCF without checking whether this was the wish of the player concerned.

Should the ECF pay any fees to correct these errors which amount to innapropriate collection of registrations with the apparent object of extracting future fees ?

[IM Jack Rudd]

Should the ECF pay any fees to correct these errors which amount to innapropriate collection of registrations with the apparent object of extracting future fees ?

Does correcting an error in this way cost a fee? That's not the impression I've got from instances where players' nationalities have been corrected.