ECF Board Meeting, Birmingham 13th March 2010

[Adam Raoof]

Of course it is not essential to have a budget. It is possible to raise awareness and a lot of money by simply devoting some time to contacting potential sponsors for events, as long as you have the time and tackle it in the appropriate way. You do need free time, and you do need to be able to persist in the face of criticism

If anyone who has responsibility for an area under Home Chess (such as Prisons, Disabled, Congress or now Women's chess) had a good business plan for an event, or a sound proposal for an initiative I felt might work out, I would do all I could to support them financially. It doesn't have to be ECF money, but if it is we simply have to justify it.

[David Pardoe]

Hello Adam, Good to read your comments.
I was interested in your point about reviewing County Competition rules.
One thing I strongly believe should be changed are the player eligability criteria.
For years these have been too lax, in my view, allowing almost any Tom , Dick, or Harry to play for any team they fancy.
The prime criteria for eligability should be based on where a player currently lives, works, or plays the bulk of there chess.
This should be by reference to the council to which they pay there council tax, in the case of home location & club location. It should not allow players in leagues that span several counties to play for any of the counties, only the players `home` county.
The exception I might make is where a player is in a county which does not participate in a Qualifying event that the player is eligable for. In that case, such players might be allowed to play for a neighbouring county.
One point to illustrate this. I`m aware of players(s) in Litchfield (the capital of Staffordshire), being eligable to play for Warwickshire, simply because Litchfield play in the Birmingham league. In my view, such actions should not be allowed.
Just as a separate point...players have mentioned the new counties, based on city connerbations in the seventies.
These created a great opportunity to produce more county teams and organisations, which allowed many more players to play county chess. More importantly, it gave players in previously huge counties a great chance to play chess more locally.
The NCCU benefited from this, when Merseyside was borne out of parts of Lancs & Cheshire. It meant that Liverpool players no longer had to journey to Manchester to play `home` matches....and the new boundaries, as far as I know, are respected. I think that counties and Unions could look again at such situations to see if any further improvements are possible, that could ensure more `localised` county chess, and greater participation.
One possibility, for instance, could be for Yorkshire to split into two...East & West Zones. This might be based with reference to the M1, create a new `county` (or sub counties) in the NCCU. Remember Yorks used to be 3 counties (or Ridings), and my Greater Manchester Map still shows the proud county of West Yorkshire. Such moves could liberate county chess in the NCCU, and encourage other counties to participate more fully. At present, for many years, they have sat back and watched as heavyweights Yorks & Lancs slogged it out. Thus we have non-competition, and little participation in that region, I feel.

[Carl Hibbard]

One point to illustrate this. I`m aware of players(s) in Lichfield (the capital of Staffordshire), being eligable to play for Warwickshire, simply because Lichfield play in the Birmingham league. In my view, such actions should not be allowed.

I used to play for Lichfield (and hence Staffordshire) but then I also play for Stratford-upon-Avon in the Leamington League and so could play for Warwickshire, was born in Birmingham so that also counts but actually now live in Worcestershire...

So which of these is valid??

[Adam Raoof]

I was born in Herts, brought up in Kent and now live and work in Middlesex, which doesn't actually exist....

[Roger de Coverly]

For years these have been too lax, in my view, allowing almost any Tom , Dick, or Harry to play for any team they fancy.

So what's wrong with that? It works for the 4NCL. Why should a player be permanently condemned to either play on a top board for a weak team or fail to be selected for a strong team? In my view any organisation able to field a 16 board team should be able to enter the regional and national "counties" competition.

[Alex Holowczak]

The NCCU benefited from this, when Merseyside was borne out of parts of Lancs & Cheshire. It meant that Liverpool players no longer had to journey to Manchester to play `home` matches....and the new boundaries, as far as I know, are respected. I think that counties and Unions could look again at such situations to see if any further improvements are possible, that could ensure more `localised` county chess, and greater participation.
One possibility, for instance, could be for Yorkshire to split into two...East & West Zones. This might be based with reference to the M1, create a new `county` (or sub counties) in the NCCU. Remember Yorks used to be 3 counties (or Ridings), and my Greater Manchester Map still shows the proud county of West Yorkshire. Such moves could liberate county chess in the NCCU, and encourage other counties to participate more fully. At present, for many years, they have sat back and watched as heavyweights Yorks & Lancs slogged it out. Thus we have non-competition, and little participation in that region, I feel.

The NCCU is crazy. I don't think subdividing counties into things that aren't counties is fair to a competition called the County Championship. I'm not a fan of Greater Manchester, Merseyside, Cleveland, or whatever other things there are playing, when they're not counties. Still, nothing will ever change it, so it's pointless complaining about it. If Lancashire and Yorkshire win everytime, so be it. If they win, they win. It's a competition. The nature of a competition is that people win it. If the NCCU had 6 proper counties (Lancashire, Yorkshire, Cheshire, Durham, Cumbria and Northumberland off the top of my head), then you'd get 3 nominations for the Major Open and two for the Minor Open. So the small counties would still have something to play for.

[Alex Holowczak]

For years these have been too lax, in my view, allowing almost any Tom , Dick, or Harry to play for any team they fancy.

So what's wrong with that? It works for the 4NCL. Why should a player be permanently condemned to either play on a top board for a weak team or fail to be selected for a strong team? In my view any organisation able to field a 16 board team should be able to enter the regional and national "counties" competition.

Are you suggesting Magnus Carlsen should go and play for Russia, because he can never win the Olympiad with Norway?

[Alex Holowczak]

I was born in Herts, brought up in Kent and now live and work in Middlesex, which doesn't actually exist....

All three exist: http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/table.htm

[Adam Raoof]

I was born in Herts, brought up in Kent and now live and work in Middlesex, which doesn't actually exist....

All three exist: http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/table.htm

In a chess sense, yes. However not in a political sense; the Royal Commission in 1965 merged what was Middlesex into Greater London. But I still love putting it in my address And I have played county chess for all three.

I like Roger's idea...

[Sean Hewitt]

I think David has a point, but only up to a point.

Take me - I live in Manchester but am Leicester born and bred for my sins. I play county chess for Leicestershire and quite frankly would not play for any other county as Leicestershire is the county to which I feel an association. I feel that place of birth gives such a connection and should certainly be a qualifier. Place of residence for fairly obvious reasons should also qualify.

The club criteria is a bit stickier but the rules are not as liberal as people may believe. They say that you are eligible if you have "Two months immediate previous and present membership of a club either in or affiliated to that County."

If you look up a club on the ECF grading database it tells you which county they are in and in my opinion that is the county that club qualifies you to play for. Look up Lichfield CC as an example and you see the therefore that playing for Lichfield qualifies you for Staffordshire. It would only qualify you for Warwickshire if and only if Lichfield CC were separately affiliated to Warwickshire Chess Association.

The Warwickshire CA doesn't tell us whether Lichfield are affiliated and neither does the Lichfield website but that website does say that Lichfield play in the Derby league too - I would hope that no-one suggests that all Lichfield players are qualified for Derbyshire?!!

The fact that Lichfield plays in various leagues is irrelevant according to the rules when determining player eligibility.

I should point out that I have used Lichfield, Staffordshire, Warwickshire and Derbyshire purely as an example after Dave Pardoe first used them. It equally applies to other clubs and counties.

[Sean Hewitt]

For years these have been too lax, in my view, allowing almost any Tom , Dick, or Harry to play for any team they fancy.

So what's wrong with that? It works for the 4NCL. Why should a player be permanently condemned to either play on a top board for a weak team or fail to be selected for a strong team? In my view any organisation able to field a 16 board team should be able to enter the regional and national "counties" competition.

I think that's a perfectly reasonable view although of course the event would no longer be the County Championships. Perhaps the idea is more suitable to the National Club Championship?

[Roger de Coverly]

Are you suggesting Magnus Carlsen should go and play for Russia, because he can never win the Olympiad with Norway?

He might conclude (as he did for the 2009 Euro team) that playing 2550 players wasn't the best use of his time and energy and sit the Olympiad out.

We're talking about the organisation of weekend team chess though, not international sporting events. Other than tradition , what are the arguments in favour of it being based around a "ceremonial county" model rather than some other set up?

[Roger de Coverly]

The fact that Lichfield plays in various leagues is irrelevant according to the rules when determining player eligibility.

If you look up the county pages of the ECF yearbook though, it lists affiliated clubs for each county association. Lichfield features three times, directly under Staffs and Derby and indirectly ( via the Birmingham League list) for Warwickshire.

[Sean Hewitt]

The fact that Lichfield plays in various leagues is irrelevant according to the rules when determining player eligibility.

If you look up the county pages of the ECF yearbook though, it lists affiliated clubs for each county association. Lichfield features three times, directly under Staffs and Derby and indirectly ( via the Birmingham League list) for Warwickshire.

As I said Roger, a club may choose to affiliate to other counties and although I don't think that should qualify it's players for that county the rule currently is that it does.

However, the Birmigham league is not run by the Warwickshire CA and I would maintain that if Lichfield is not affiliated to Warwickshire CA itself then playing for Lichfield in the Birmingham league does not qualify a player to play for Warwickshire in the County Championships.

[Roger de Coverly]

However, the Birmigham league is not run by the Warwickshire CA and I would maintain that if Lichfield is not affiliated to Warwickshire CA itself then playing for Lichfield in the Birmingham league does not qualify a player to play for Warwickshire in the County Championships.

I think the Warwickshire county team must be a figment of everyone's imagination since the ECF yearbook lists only the three local leagues - Birmingham, Coventry and Leamington and no affiliated clubs.

Didn't Joey Cage (as he then was) describe the Warwickshire county selection process and how it limits out of county players?

In the south, I believe that Middlesex restrict their county selections to players active within the Middlesex club scene.