Compulsory Membership?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed May 30, 2012 11:57 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote: Which have been made, as I've explained in the post immediately previous to this.
C16.8 wrote:The wider issue, however, is the apparent poor control over completeness of game fee income, which arises essentially because there is no process for matching game files submitted for grading with payments made for game files
So has the "wider issue" in C16.8 (Finance Committee Chairman Report) been sorted?

Anyone watching from outside would have thought this a fundamental part of the ECF's revenue raising. Evidently members of Council don't ask sufficiently searching questions, as I would presume this weakness had been present since the 1990s.
Alex Holowczak wrote: The problem is with getting the original estimate right. Many have failed to do this with any level of accuracy.
Again what was wrong with the common sense solution? The estimate has to be validated against the grading file total from the previous year. If it isn't within 5% (say), it gets questioned.

Martin Benjamin
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Martin Benjamin » Thu May 31, 2012 1:43 am

Sean Hewitt wrote:Am I missing something? Where are the burning buildings, the rioting in the streets, the mass exodus and the death of the ECF that some forumites were predicting?

So far, we have heard that Yorkshire might disaffiliate (hardly a shock as they pay bugger all now) but precious little else. Certainly, no confirmed moves not to grade events.

Perhaps those that thought that game fee organisations would implement the membership scheme (albeit reluctantly) were right after all?
To be fair, Sean, it would be complacent to assume that the new scheme is being enthusiastically received and that implementation is smooth. My impression is that there are many people like myself who don't like the membership scheme at all, but just get on with doing our best to make it work, without commenting on it or kicking up a fuss. I am Treasurer of a small club, and many of our players play no more than 5-6 games per year. Most of these players will not join direct, not because of the cost, but being occasional rather than regular and keen chess players, they just will not get round to it and/or instinctively have a "John Bull" like objection to being compelled to join an organisation. We play in three different leagues. One league (AGM to be held in July) has declared its intention to act as an MO and register our 6 games or more players with the ECF, another will charge us game fees at £2 and a bit per game for non-ECF members, and the third has not yet decided, but I hear it may simply refuse to allow the participation of non-ECF direct members or charge us £2 and loose change per game. I foresee receiving a bill totalling the £2 fees for several of our players on one day from one league, just as another letter/email arrives from another league informing me that they have signed up the same players as ECF members - probably at the same time as one of the players featuring on both lists informs that he has just posted his membership or joined online himself. A further complication is that our 4-5 regular players play in potentially 5-10 competitions/leagues/counties which might want to be MOs.....

The reality is that nothing is insuperable and people like myself will just get on with it and make it work somehow. However, I could do without the inconvenience and aggravation of such things, particularly when I have little enough spare time as it is (9am to midnight working day today). The absence of protest is me accepting the inevitable, not necessarily liking it!

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu May 31, 2012 7:16 am

Martin Benjamin wrote:To be fair, Sean, it would be complacent to assume that the new scheme is being enthusiastically received and that implementation is smooth. My impression is that there are many people like myself who don't like the membership scheme at all, but just get on with doing our best to make it work, without commenting on it or kicking up a fuss. I am Treasurer of a small club, and many of our players play no more than 5-6 games per year. Most of these players will not join direct, not because of the cost, but being occasional rather than regular and keen chess players, they just will not get round to it and/or instinctively have a "John Bull" like objection to being compelled to join an organisation. We play in three different leagues. One league (AGM to be held in July) has declared its intention to act as an MO and register our 6 games or more players with the ECF, another will charge us game fees at £2 and a bit per game for non-ECF members, and the third has not yet decided, but I hear it may simply refuse to allow the participation of non-ECF direct members or charge us £2 and loose change per game. I foresee receiving a bill totalling the £2 fees for several of our players on one day from one league, just as another letter/email arrives from another league informing me that they have signed up the same players as ECF members - probably at the same time as one of the players featuring on both lists informs that he has just posted his membership or joined online himself. A further complication is that our 4-5 regular players play in potentially 5-10 competitions/leagues/counties which might want to be MOs.....

The reality is that nothing is insuperable and people like myself will just get on with it and make it work somehow. However, I could do without the inconvenience and aggravation of such things, particularly when I have little enough spare time as it is (9am to midnight working day today). The absence of protest is me accepting the inevitable, not necessarily liking it!
Martin - I agree with everything that you say. I think your comment ties perfectly with my last sentence.
Sean Hewitt wrote:Perhaps those that thought that game fee organisations would implement the membership scheme (albeit reluctantly) were right after all?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu May 31, 2012 11:14 am

Martin Benjamin wrote: My impression is that there are many people like myself who don't like the membership scheme at all, but just get on with doing our best to make it work, without commenting on it or kicking up a fuss.
The impression I get is that AGMs attended as they are by the more committed players have felt unwilling to sacrifice the concept of involvement in national grading. Once that's accepted, you have little choice but to accept whatever conditions the ECF imposes. So if you sacrifice something, it's the potential involvement of less active players. They do this either directly, by banning non-ECF members, or indirectly by imposing financial conditions on their participation. For a league season of 7 months, you can categorise players by those who play once a month, twice a month, three times or more a month. The ECF are putting the price up for once a month and twice a month, but if it's for an activity they've enjoyed over many years, they may live with it. From a south of England or London area viewpoint, I reject the notion that the reason why a 7 a season player didn't play 14 was because of the extra Game Fee of around £ 4. As Martin points out, if a league only offers 7 games and you want more games, you just play in two leagues.

If you browse the downloaded grading list, you see a relatively high number of players playing a limited number of games. In order to establish how many, I extracted those playing 6 and under, removing juniors, players with international codes and those who'd played any rapid games. This left 1297 names, which is over 10% of the total. So the question comes as to whether the national chess scene can afford to drive them away.There's also the hidden count of players without published grades.

Under its membership scheme, the only way the ECF can increase its income is to sign up more players, or to increase the per head membership charges for existing ones. We may recall the Regan approach, that £ 13 per head was nowhere near enough to finance the ECF and that it needed to be in the £ 20 to £ 30 range, a view I believe, held by at least one of the current ECF directors. With the ECF giving away grading services to members for nothing, an increase in the games played and events taking place is of no financial benefit if it doesn't result in an increase in headcount.

(edit)I don't know whether it's serious or not, but the most public opposition is coming from the North. There's a discussion on the local North East forum.

http://peterleechessclub.co.uk/yabb/YaB ... 1338399208 (/edit)

Although the debate is started with a "not quite true" assertion
As people now know the ECF are implementing compulsary membership to get games graded.
I would have put it as
The ECF are increasing league Game Fee to £ 2 per game, and Congress Game Fee to £ 6 per head, but waiving it for ECF members.
(/edit)

Mark Howitt
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mark Howitt » Thu May 31, 2012 7:19 pm

Where's the England team announcement?

Paul Cooksey

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Paul Cooksey » Thu May 31, 2012 7:34 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:The impression I get is that AGMs attended as they are by the more committed players have felt unwilling to sacrifice the concept of involvement in national grading.
That may indeed be true. But I don't think it implies that strong players are forgetting the casual players.

Firstly, they may see national grading as a factor in turning casual players into committed players. I certainly do.

Secondly, committed players may be willing to pay more to their club to support casual players. If the treasurer of one of my clubs told me he was creating a reserve of £50 to fund £2 game fees for new members, I'd be happy to accept his judgement. I think clubs can make judgements on who to subsidise, and who not to, better than the ECF.

John McKenna

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by John McKenna » Thu May 31, 2012 9:47 pm

Looks like the deadline is 1st June. A team that could outdo the Scots (GMs - McNab, Arakhamia, Shaw, FMs - Tate & Morrison) and not cost a fortune might be raised by using ECF coaches and a couple of siblings - GMs N. McDonald & N. Pert, IMs R. Pert, Adam & Harriett Hunt and L. Cooper (capt/reserve).
Last edited by John McKenna on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

John McKenna

Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by John McKenna » Thu May 31, 2012 9:57 pm

That should be GM N. McDonald. (Amended above.)
Last edited by John McKenna on Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by LawrenceCooper » Thu May 31, 2012 10:22 pm

John McKenna wrote:Looks like the deadline is 1st June. A team that could outdo the Scots (GMs - McNab, Arakhamia, Shaw, FMs - Tate & Morrison) and not cost a fortune might be raised by using ECF coaches and a couple of siblings - GMs N. Macdonald & N. Pert, IMs R. Pert, Adam & Harriett Hunt and L. Cooper (capt/reserve).
The deadline for registering players is July 10th. The deadline for registering accommodation requirements is June 10th.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu May 31, 2012 10:40 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote: The deadline for registering players is July 10th. The deadline for registering accommodation requirements is June 10th.
The post that said the deadline was June 1st appears to have been deleted. England are already listed as an entered team, as one would expect.

Sean Hewitt
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Sean Hewitt » Thu May 31, 2012 10:48 pm

Mark Howitt wrote:Where's the England team announcement?
You'll get to know it when you've paid your membership fee :lol:

Angus French
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Angus French » Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:39 am

Will it be possible for a club or a third party to acquire a membership - online or by post or by telephone - on behalf of an individual?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:03 am

Angus French wrote:Will it be possible for a club or a third party to acquire a membership - online or by post or by telephone - on behalf of an individual?
That was always the case in the days of the BCF, but then it was termed registration. The scheme lacks attributes of membership as in voting rights and liability for the ECF's debts, so don't know. It is actually a relevant issue because it determines as to whether the "residual Game Fee" is capped at £ 13.

If there's a framework agreement in place and a club secretary passes on details to a league secretary, how does the ECF know the individual is aware that they have become a member of the ECF? It's something that in retrospect was a lack of clarity between the NCCU and the ECF. The NCCU's Northern Membership was in their eyes a scheme to have games graded with their local organisations becoming exempt from Game Fee. The ECF thought it was individual membership of the ECF.

Nick Grey
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Nick Grey » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:57 pm

Why should the ECF (or MO) invoice a club?

If ECF is implementing a compulsory scheme then they ought to sort out their £2 charges for services to individuals.

And even though ECF have sent out details to current members there has been nothing positive to encourage, or allow clubs to encourage new members. And I thought that was a main purpose of the ECF.

Seriously - I'm considering not renewing (membership expired May 31st).

Mark Howitt
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Re: Compulsory Membership?

Post by Mark Howitt » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:58 pm

I believe the cutoff date was supposed to be 1st June so why hasn't a team been announced?

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