ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

[Maxim Devereaux]

I'm already paying to be a member of both the Norwegian federation and the ECF. It's quite ridiculous that I have to do this when I am no longer even resident in England. Still, I am paid up to September 2013.

I look forward to January 2013, when I will have been in Norway long enough that I can register myself as Norwegian as far as FIDE is concerned, at a cost of €250 (and not the €250 + €4000 compensation fee to the ECF (unless waived, yeah right!) + €2000 transfer fee that it would cost me before that, even if approved, for being a sub-2400 IM), after which it will no longer be necessary to stump up any more money for something which does not give me any benefit at all.

[Paul Cooksey]

I'm already paying to be a member of both the Norwegian federation and the ECF. It's quite ridiculous that I have to do this when I am no longer even resident in England. Still, I am paid up to September 2013.

I look forward to January 2013, when I will have been in Norway long enough that I can register myself as Norwegian as far as FIDE is concerned, at a cost of €250 (and not the €250 + €4000 compensation fee to the ECF (unless waived, yeah right!) + €2000 transfer fee that it would cost me before that, even if approved, for being a sub-2400 IM), after which it will no longer be necessary to stump up any more money for something which does not give me any benefit at all.

I enclose a cheque for £
Payable to WCU. (Adults: £10, Juniors (under 18 on 1/9/10): £7)

Off on a tangent - didn't know transfer fees were payable. Delighted to see I'd cost Wales €2000

[Paul Cooksey]

after which it will no longer be necessary to stump up any more money for something which does not give me any benefit at all.

If Max is making the point he is now in Norway, no argument. But I think good players would probably be less good if the ECF had not historically provided the infrastructure for them to play it.

[Maxim Devereaux]

Off on a tangent - didn't know transfer fees were payable. Delighted to see I'd cost Wales €2000

Unless you meet the registration requirements, that is:

1.3 A player qualifies to be registered under a Federation:
(a) if he or she is qualified by citizenship or naturalization in the country of that Federation; or
(b) if he or she has resided for a continuous period of two years in a country of which he or she is not a citizen and, after thorough examination and clearance by the FIDE General Secretary, is approved for registration under the new Federation of his or her country of residence. This two-year period of residence shall be reduced to one year if the player has not participated in any FIDE competition (including continental individual and team events) for at least 5 consecutive years prior to the date of registration.
(c) if FIDE has approved his or her transfer.

A bargain €2000 compensation and €1000 transfer fee for you, Paul, as an FM

All the details here: http://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html? ... w=category

[Paul Cooksey]

A bargain €2000 compensation and €1000 transfer fee for you, Paul, as an FM

It is going to take the WCU some time to recoup that at £10 a year, even if they were convinced by my mum being called Enid and me once visiting Caernarfon Castle

[Adam Raoof]

I'm already paying to be a member of both the Norwegian federation and the ECF. It's quite ridiculous that I have to do this when I am no longer even resident in England. Still, I am paid up to September 2013.

Why are you paying to be a member of the Norwegian Federation?

[Maxim Devereaux]

after which it will no longer be necessary to stump up any more money for something which does not give me any benefit at all.

If Max is making the point he is now in Norway, no argument. But I think good players would probably be less good if the ECF had not historically provided the infrastructure for them to play it.

Yes, this was not a point about the general value of the ECF (/BCF)'s contribution to chess in England, or about whether I should have paid my membership fee in the past, but that it makes absolutely no sense that I need to pay an ECF membership fee now, when the only thing I have played in England in the last few years is 4NCL (which I pay to play in in any case), and when I am now paying membership of the federation of the country which I live in.

I don't mind giving them the €1 per annum they have to pay FIDE for me (see 9.2 here: http://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html? ... w=category), but I do rather resent the £65 I have to pay for 3 years Standard membership. What do I get for this exactly?

[Maxim Devereaux]

I'm already paying to be a member of both the Norwegian federation and the ECF. It's quite ridiculous that I have to do this when I am no longer even resident in England. Still, I am paid up to September 2013.

Why are you paying to be a member of the Norwegian Federation?

Uhh... because I live in Norway, and play for a club that plays in team competitions under the aegis of the Norwegian chess federation.

But the main point is that I pay twice over in England - both I (as part of Barbican 4NCL) has to pay an entry fee to the 4NCL, part of which goes to the game fees and I have to pay individually to be a member of the ECF. It's this double taxation that is fundamentally wrong: my games in the 4NCL are paid for, so why do I need to pay again?

[Alex Holowczak]

But the main point is that I pay twice over in England - both I (as part of Barbican 4NCL) has to pay an entry fee to the 4NCL, part of which goes to the game fees and I have to pay individually to be a member of the ECF. It's this double taxation that is fundamentally wrong: my games in the 4NCL are paid for, so why do I need to pay again?

On the contrary. The 4NCL pays £0 in Game Fee to the ECF. Your membership fee covers it. As far as I'm aware, no FIDE-rated event in England pays any Game Fee.

[Maxim Devereaux]

But the main point is that I pay twice over in England - both I (as part of Barbican 4NCL) has to pay an entry fee to the 4NCL, part of which goes to the game fees and I have to pay individually to be a member of the ECF. It's this double taxation that is fundamentally wrong: my games in the 4NCL are paid for, so why do I need to pay again?

On the contrary. The 4NCL pays £0 in Game Fee to the ECF. Your membership fee covers it. As far as I'm aware, no FIDE-rated event in England pays any Game Fee.

If that's the case, things must have changed, Alex.

Despite being a 4NCL board member in the past, I can't recall the budgetary stuff with sufficient clarity to contradict you on that, but I can with total certainty say that when I organised a FIDE-rated closed IM tournament in 2006, I had to pay both game fees and FIDE rating fees for it to the ECF.

[Roger de Coverly]

What do I get for this exactly?

In recent years, the right to play in the 4NCL (and any other FIDE rated British event). Although if you became NOR you would not have to become an ECF member to play in the 4NCL under current rules. Future rules suggest you might, particularly if you made a guest appearance in a local league or county game.

In future years, that plus the right not to have your rating and rating history trashed by the ECF.

Perhaps there should be a FIDE rating rule, if there isn't one already, that if a member of a Foreign Federation, your home Federation has no rights against you for non-membership.

I expect you could have avoided becoming a member of the Norwegian federation by only playing in tournaments.
http://ratings.fide.com/tournament_repo ... nt16=53352
International entrants to Gausdal or Tromso presumably do so on the back of presumed membership of their home federation.

[Alex Holowczak]

If that's the case, things must have changed, Alex.

OK, I'll take your word for it that the rules have changed. My knowledge of the current rules is only 12 months old, so I have no knowledge with which to argue against you.

Therefore, "the main point is that I pay twice over in England" is in fact, not the main point.

[Adam Raoof]

after which it will no longer be necessary to stump up any more money for something which does not give me any benefit at all.

If Max is making the point he is now in Norway, no argument. But I think good players would probably be less good if the ECF had not historically provided the infrastructure for them to play it.

Yes, this was not a point about the general value of the ECF (/BCF)'s contribution to chess in England, or about whether I should have paid my membership fee in the past, but that it makes absolutely no sense that I need to pay an ECF membership fee now, when the only thing I have played in England in the last few years is 4NCL (which I pay to play in in any case), and when I am now paying membership of the federation of the country which I live in.

I don't mind giving them the €1 per annum they have to pay FIDE for me (see 9.2 here: http://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html? ... w=category), but I do rather resent the £65 I have to pay for 3 years Standard membership. What do I get for this exactly?

Yes, but I am interested in why you felt you had to join the Norwegian Chess Federation? Do they have a compulsory membership scheme?

As to whether you should be a member of the ECF although you are living abroad, I am not sure this really addresses the point - if you are registered with ENG with FIDE, you need to be a member of the ECF. This in itself is a benefit. Moreover playing in the 4NCL is not a minor undertaking. I agree that if you are NOR then you shouldn't have to be a member of the ECF. You don't have to join for three years - you chose to, when you could have joined for a year.

The money raised by this method supports the ECF and the development of chess in England, and I think it is fair and reasonable to require membership from players registered with England, wherever they live.

[Roger de Coverly]

but I can with total certainty say that when I organised a FIDE-rated closed IM tournament in 2006, I had to pay both game fees and FIDE rating fees for it to the ECF.

The ECF brought in this change relatively recently with little publicity The net result is that a player of NOR, or from anywhere else that isn't ENG gets to play at all English (and Gibraltar) FIDE rated tournaments without any income accruing to the ECF.

[Maxim Devereaux]

Perhaps there should be a FIDE rating rule, if there isn't one already, that if a member of a Foreign Federation, your home Federation has no rights against you for non-membership.

I expect you could have avoided becoming a member of the Norwegian federation by only playing in tournaments.
http://ratings.fide.com/tournament_repo ... nt16=53352
International entrants to Gausdal or Tromso presumably do so on the back of presumed membership of their home federation.

Probably unwieldy to expect FIDE to manage to track who is a member of which federations (some players might be members of many, if they play in leagues in many different countries).

Really, the ECF should allow such leeway i.e. that if you can prove residence in another country, and membership of that country's federation, then they should not demand that you are also a member of the ECF, or provide a membership class that caters for it.

All that is stopping me changing federations is FIDE's compensation and transfer fees, but I have to pay the ECF their pound of flesh in the meantime, simply to keep my rating active and allow me to play abroad.

The point is that I want to play league chess in Norway - that's not a problem at all... and membership of the federation is only 220 NOK per annum, about £25, same as Standard member of the ECF, which is a bargain considering almost everything else here is generally twice (or more) as expensive as the UK.