ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

[Roger de Coverly]

Yes, but I am interested in why you felt you had to join the Norwegian Chess Federation? Do they have a compulsory membership scheme?

If you go to the Norwegian Chess Federation's home page, you note that national membership is bundled with club membership. So to play in their equivalent to the 4NCL or county matches, you become a member. Note also that rating/event fees are on top of the membership.

The money raised by this method supports the ECF and the development of chess in England, and I think it is fair and reasonable to require membership from players registered with England, wherever they live.

On the other hand, the ECF no longer believes that it should raise money from non-resident players playing in England, even though it is very short of money.

[Alex Holowczak]

The point is that I want to play league chess in Norway - that's not a problem at all... and membership of the federation is only 220 NOK per annum, about £25, same as Standard member of the ECF, which is a bargain considering almost everything else here is generally twice (or more) as expensive as the UK.

You want to play league chess in England, don't you? The 4NCL is a league, after all. The price of playing in the 4NCL and nothing else would be £27 from September. I don't see what the objection can be?

Why should you have to pay for membership of two different countries? Because you're playing in leagues in two different countries, and if that's how both countries fund their Federation, that seems only right to me.

[Maxim Devereaux]

Yes, but I am interested in why you felt you had to join the Norwegian Chess Federation? Do they have a compulsory membership scheme?

As to whether you should be a member of the ECF although you are living abroad, I am not sure this really addresses the point - if you are registered with ENG with FIDE, you need to be a member of the ECF. This in itself is a benefit. Moreover playing in the 4NCL is not a minor undertaking. I agree that if you are NOR then you shouldn't have to be a member of the ECF. You don't have to join for three years - you chose to, when you could have joined for a year.

I think I answered the first question already: yes, it's compulsary if I play in their team competitions, which I am doing, but I don't then have to pay anything more than that in order to do so (i.e. no entry fee comparable with that of the 4NCL).

I think the point is that I am (realistically) prevented from changing federation as I would like to by FIDEs regulations on transfer fees and compensation (which are exacerbated by the fact that I am titled), and so am forced to continue paying to two federations over a three year period. Since I can't realistically change federation before January 2013, I need to be a member of the ECF until then, hence why I paid for three years. I can still resent the rules that cause this to be necessary, but it was the best practical choice.

[Roger de Coverly]

Because you're playing in leagues in two different countries, and if that's how both countries fund their Federation, that seems only right to me.

That isn't what the ECF do though. NOR players in the 4NCL aren't required to be ECF members. In the "old" days, before the 4NCL got its exemption, they (or rather their team) would have contributed via Game Fee.

[Maxim Devereaux]

You want to play league chess in England, don't you? The 4NCL is a league, after all. The price of playing in the 4NCL and nothing else would be £27 from September. I don't see what the objection can be?

Why should you have to pay for membership of two different countries? Because you're playing in leagues in two different countries, and if that's how both countries fund their Federation, that seems only right to me.

It's not really comparable, Alex, since the 4NCL is a separate entity, with no affiliation to the ECF, not organised by it as the Norwegian league is by their federation. As such, it appears to me eminently reasonable that I pay the Norwegian federation to play in their league, and the 4NCL to play in their league, but the roughly 2500% overhead that I pay the ECF for administration of me as one of "their" players (£25 per annum when I cost them €1) seems completely unreasonable.

[Alex Holowczak]

You want to play league chess in England, don't you? The 4NCL is a league, after all. The price of playing in the 4NCL and nothing else would be £27 from September. I don't see what the objection can be?

Why should you have to pay for membership of two different countries? Because you're playing in leagues in two different countries, and if that's how both countries fund their Federation, that seems only right to me.

It's not really comparable, Alex, since the 4NCL is a separate entity, with no affiliation to the ECF, not organised by it as the Norwegian league is by their federation. As such, it appears to me eminently reasonable that I pay the Norwegian federation to play in their league, and the 4NCL to play in their league, but the roughly 2500% overhead that I pay the ECF for administration of me as one of "their" players (£25 per annum when I cost them €1) seems completely unreasonable.

Well, it is affiliated to the ECF, but I take your point: The 4NCL isn't run by the ECF.

Perhaps when the future funding proposals are made public, you may find this isn't so much of a problem.

[Roger de Coverly]

Well, it is affiliated to the ECF, but I take your point: The 4NCL isn't run by the ECF.

The whole membership of FIDE thing could have been dealt with very simply if the BCF/ECF had had the will to do so.

The 4NCL is not just affiliated to the ECF, but it's a member of it. After all it has voting rights and a requirement to pay a £1 in the event of the ECF's insolvency. 4NCL players are registered with the 4NCL. So why doesn't that satisfy FIDE membership requirements? It's hardly different from a structure whereby you become a member of the National Federation because you play for a club in a national or regional league. From there on, it's just a question of price and pricing method.

[Mike Truran]

The moment has probably passed in the debate, but I can confirm that the 4NCL hasn't paid game fee since 2005. When the ECF made its ultimatum to the 4NCL at that time ('insist on ECF membership for players in the 4NCL or we won't submit your event for rating), we got the exemption on the basis that expecting players to be both ECF members and to pay ECF game fee might technically/legally (or whatever) not have been double taxation, but in practice it certainly looked like it to 'the man on the Clapham omnibus'. I recall at the time using the phrase 'if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck'.

[Mick Norris]

The moment has probably passed in the debate, but I can confirm that the 4NCL hasn't paid game fee since 2005. When the ECF made its ultimatum to the 4NCL at that time ('insist on ECF membership for players in the 4NCL or we won't submit your event for rating), we got the exemption on the basis that expecting players to be both ECF members and to pay ECF game fee might technically/legally (or whatever) not have been double taxation, but in practice it certainly looked like it to 'the man on the Clapham omnibus'. I recall at the time using the phrase 'if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck'.

Do ducks have to pay membership?

[Sean Hewitt]

Do ducks have to pay membership?

Only if they're English

[IM Jack Rudd]

[Adam Raoof]

Do ducks have to pay membership?

Only if they're English

I cann officially announce that all ducks entering the London Chess Classic, unless they are visiting FIDE rated ducks all in a row, will have to be members of the ECF. Unless they are swans or geese and not technically ducks. (proof may be required)

[Alex Holowczak]

Do ducks have to pay membership?

Only if they're English

I cann officially announce that all ducks entering the London Chess Classic, unless they are visiting FIDE rated ducks all in a row, will have to be members of the ECF. Unless they are swans or geese and not technically ducks. (proof may be required)

Finally, some FIDE-rated games I have a chance of winning!

[Stewart Reuben]

It's a mystery to me. Why don't people realise it costs a certain amount of time and money to administer the relationship between the English players who play international chess and the international chess community? Why should this be an unfair burden on those people who do not play internationally?
Maxim Devereux is a good example. Over his chess career he has received benefit. Some years more than others. Everybody who has a FIDE Rating has benefited from ECF Officers who have given their time, usually with no recompense. It is the wish of some of us that those English players should make a contribution.
The FIDE Regulations regarding membership is a total red herring. Of course we could simply say, 'All FIDE Rated players registered as being from England are members.' I think Russia doesn't have a membership system.
Say administrators like Lawrence Cooper, Adam Raoof, Alex Holowczak, Jack Rudd, David Welch, Howard Grist and I simply said, 'OK nobody wants to be a an ECF Member. Fair enough. We will go back in time and delete the requirement and never ever have had anything to do with international chess. Do you whingers really think you would have been better off?

Stewart Reuben

[Roger de Coverly]

Why should this be an unfair burden on those people who do not play internationally?

Currently the ECF whether by Game Fee or cost of membership makes no distinction between international players and the rest. So the current pricing structures impose the unfair burden with no public proposals to change this.

The measure is a direct charge on ex-pats like Max and Harry Lamb* who are not in a position to walk away from the ECF because of FIDE transfer fees. Do any other federations treat their overseas based players in the same way? There will be the same issue with English players moving to Wales or Scotland and wishing or needing to become WCU or Chess Scotland members.

* I don't think he's really an ex-pat but plays often enough in France to be equivalent.