Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Hok Yin Stephen Chiu
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:52 pm

Re: Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Post by Hok Yin Stephen Chiu » Fri May 24, 2019 12:46 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:04 am
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 10:50 am
If Organisation A wants to appoint Person A as its delegate, then he's perfectly entitled to do so without restriction. Organisations B, C, D ... could also appoint Person A as their delegate. Suddenly Person A has lots of votes without any need for proxies. Even if proxies were able to be banned, then I expect you'd see much the same people turning up to Council meetings as you do now, they'd just be delegates instead of proxies.
That is in fact what Hok wants to eliminate. Like you and others, I wondered how it could actually be done, although but for the Companies Act ( I assume ) the Mem & Arts could say whatever Council wants them to say.

If I play for one club in the London League, I cannot play for another in the same season. What would be wrong with having a similar rule for ECF Delegates? I'm not saying it's necessarily a good idea, merely that it isn't ridiculous.
Yes, that is what I think would in the short-to-long run be a good thing for bringing more voices to Council. To be small c conservative about it, I don't even propose to eliminate it, but simply cap it at 2 organisations maximum. I think given the situation of 10 out of 47 present at the last AGM, holding 148 out of 290 votes, those with just one or two votes might as well not turn up..
Chris Fegan wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:01 am
Adam Raoof wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:16 am
Even those of us who appoint proxies do not think it is fair.

However you have to reform the whole voting system, not just tinker around the edges. Why should people pay a membership fee to the ECF and not have a direct say in what their money is spent on, or at least be able to directly vote for representatives to make those decisions?
Adan R is Absolutely correct-the ECF voting system for ECF Council, etc continues too be a total farce and embarrassment and only OMOV will ever bring proper fairness and modernisation to the ECF.


There is a strong case that I would support for the ECF to move towards a mixed-OMOV system, with all the Directors elected by OMOV, and a Council comprised of 50% (Leagues & Congresses) and 50% geographic based (directly elected) members reps.
All views are my own/represent chess organisations that I'm part of/or neither!
Vice Chair & Delegate - Coventry and District Chess League | fmr-President -Warwick Chess

Celebrating 100 Years of the Coventry & District Chess League 1919-2019

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8890
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Post by Alex Holowczak » Fri May 24, 2019 1:11 pm

Hok Yin Stephen Chiu wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 12:46 pm
Yes, that is what I think would in the short-to-long run be a good thing for bringing more voices to Council.
In general, people fall into three categories:
1. People who prioritise ECF Council meetings and will go to them come hell or high water
2. People who will go to ECF Council meetings if they're available, and if they're not they'll nominate a proxy
3. People who couldn't care less about ECF Council meetings.

This is for reasons nothing to do with chess, and even if you changed the rules on delegate positions/proxies, people will still broadly fall into those three categories. You won't get new voices flooding Council, you'll just get more unused votes. It's not clear to me why that's a democratic improvement.

Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 1704
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Fri May 24, 2019 1:43 pm

The council system isn't perfect and the league bloc certainly has a fair few time servers and rotten boroughs. However I've always rejected the criticism of the congress bloc; these are the people who make chess happen in this country and deserve the strongest voice possible in any system. Yes, they're likely to vote for those who treat them with respect rather than contempt but there is an obvious solution there.

If OMOV was implemented I can only really see two possible models. One is that ECF becomes similar to a building society where every member has a vote on board elections and resolutions but in practice most members simply allocate their vote to the chairman or disregard the form. The other is something similar to the Labour NEC where members elect representatives but won't really have an informed opinion on the candidates (which isn't to say that they shouldn't have an opinion but in practice most don't) and the voting often comes down to factional lines anyway.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1798
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri May 24, 2019 2:17 pm

I agree with all the criticisms made in this thread.
I disagree with all of the proposed solutions which will either make no difference or make matters worse.
There's my really helpful positive contribution :-(

John McKenna
Posts: 3711
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Post by John McKenna » Fri May 24, 2019 3:17 pm

Between you, me, and the gatepost, of No. 10, we're all resigned and consigned to oblivion in the end.
Last edited by John McKenna on Sat May 25, 2019 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 18057
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri May 24, 2019 11:24 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:11 pm
3. People who couldn't care less about ECF Council meetings.
The problem perhaps is that they are elected or appointed as local organisations' representatives.

I would suspect OMOV advocates have to conduct a long campaign. One starting point being to infiltrate local meetings and get the local representative replaced by an OMOV supporter or committed to support it. Congresses might be more difficult, depending on the attitude of the head organiser(s).

But like Brexit, no one can actually agree what OMOV means.

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1798
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri May 24, 2019 11:51 pm

It's an abbreviation for omo virus, a strain of Qalyub orthonairovirus, a negative-sense single-stranded RNA virus discovered in a rat's nest in a tomb wall in the Egyptian town of Qalyub. I thought everyone knew that.

Mike Truran
Posts: 2389
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Post by Mike Truran » Sat May 25, 2019 12:18 am

I think you’ll find that the primary vector for transmission is the carios erraticus tick, and thus it is an arbovirus.

But I may be wrong.

John McKenna
Posts: 3711
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Post by John McKenna » Sat May 25, 2019 10:38 am

The underlying warning from some posters seems [edit: not, it seems] to be that OMOV is a potential killer for the ECF - akin to releasing a viral infection into the bloodstream of the body politic, or a horde of barbarians into the civilised citadel from the environs of the Forum. (Much as the Brexit Referendum is doing for the real body politic. [See footnote]

But, as I've said before, there's no real need to go the whole OMOV hog because simply giving the players' reps more voting power - to better balance player power versus that of the officials - could make for a happier medium and further reduce grumbling in the rank and file.

Of course, there's always the risk that a populist demagogue, or two, could capture control of the players' reps' votes and try to rock the boat, but they'd find it difficult to hijack, or sink, it if the balance is right enough.

[Note that if the UK had voted for a more continental type of election system in the voting reform referendum - held during the Con-Dem coalition government - Brexit may have become a non-starter, but the first-past-the-post status quo was retained.]
Last edited by John McKenna on Sat May 25, 2019 1:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Roger de Coverly
Posts: 18057
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:51 pm

Re: Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat May 25, 2019 10:52 am

John McKenna wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 10:38 am
But, as I've said before, there's no real need to go the whole OMOV hog because simply giving the players' reps more voting power - to better balance player power versus that of the officials - could make for a happier medium and further reduce grumbling in the rank and file.
That has already happened to an extent with the effect that the player representatives feel empowered to ask more questions. It doesn't make the ECF Directors answer them of course, as demonstrated by the failure to find out how much, or possibly how little, the participation of female teams in the Olympiad and European Team events was costing.

User avatar
Michael Farthing
Posts: 1798
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:28 pm
Location: Morecambe, Europe

Re: Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Post by Michael Farthing » Sat May 25, 2019 11:33 am

John McKenna wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 10:38 am
The underlying warning from some posters seems to be that OMOV is a potential killer for the ECF - akin to releasing a viral infection into the bloodstream of the body politic, or a horde of barbarians into the civilised citadel from the environs of the Forum.
Entirely in your imagination John - there was no underlying warning or meaning of any description, it was just a bit of fun. Bit like the tiger coming to tea.

John McKenna
Posts: 3711
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Post by John McKenna » Sat May 25, 2019 12:33 pm

Fair enough, Michael.

I mistook you for a prophet of doom when you were merely playing the Cheshire cat.

However, as you no doubt know, many a true word is spoken in jest and a tick may do for more than a tiger.

Also, don't forget that termites might literally eat you out of house & home if it's old-fashioned with too much dead wood in it.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 1704
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Sat May 25, 2019 3:32 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 11:24 pm
Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 1:11 pm
3. People who couldn't care less about ECF Council meetings.
The problem perhaps is that they are elected or appointed as local organisations' representatives.

I would suspect OMOV advocates have to conduct a long campaign. One starting point being to infiltrate local meetings and get the local representative replaced by an OMOV supporter or committed to support it. Congresses might be more difficult, depending on the attitude of the head organiser(s).

But like Brexit, no one can actually agree what OMOV means.
I've always said that anybody who is that desperate for a vote on council can normally get one without too much difficulty. There is of course an arguably easier way in than infiltrating a local league which is to organise your own ECF rated event (you would of course have to do all the hard work of making it happen and being successful enough to continue so it's no surprise few people are willing to do that).

The debate about reform of council has been rumbling on for years. For me it comes down to two basic problems. One is the failure of the anti council lobby to understand that most ordinary chess players hold the people who organise events for them (particularly the larger congresses) in quite considerable esteem and it's only a small group of malcontents who see them as a shadowy nexus controlling English chess for their own ends. The second is that OMOV removes some imbalances in the system but doesn't necessarily lead to better representation. Indeed it may lead to less.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

Paul Cooksey
Posts: 424
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 4:15 pm

Re: Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat May 25, 2019 3:49 pm

i guess the gist of this argument is that Adam Raoof is not organising enough events and should shut up about OMOV until he reaches the necessary number.

User avatar
JustinHorton
Posts: 6344
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:06 am
Location: Somewhere you're not

Re: Think not what the ECF can do for you, but what you can do for the ECF

Post by JustinHorton » Sat May 25, 2019 4:00 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 3:32 pm
it's only a small group of malcontents who see them as a shadowy nexus
Nice example of projection there
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Post Reply