Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
John Reyes
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Post by John Reyes » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:57 pm

I just want to say the Commentary from GingerGM Team was top class and it was good to see Ravi and Daniel and others, to talk about there games.

I hope maybe next year they get Adams and Howell to come on as well as other players like Gordon.

Bad was the Issue that we are not allowed to talk about but maybe the ECF need to look at this and maybe think that something along the line of if a player does get DQ then the match point is award, but the graded game should not!!
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

User avatar
Matt Mackenzie
Posts: 2838
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:51 pm
Location: Millom, Cumbria

Re: Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Post by Matt Mackenzie » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:03 pm

If the game has already started, then it should be counted for grading/rating IMO.

Though I understand this doesn't always seem totally "fair" - its still a classic case of "hard cases make bad law" it seems to me.
"Set up your attacks so that when the fire is out, it isn't out!" (H N Pillsbury)

Peter Shaw
Posts: 181
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:22 pm
Location: Wakefield

Re: Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Post by Peter Shaw » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:08 pm

Adams and Gordon both appeared in the commentary room at least twice. I agree that the commentary was very good.

John Reyes
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Post by John Reyes » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:18 pm

Peter Shaw wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:08 pm
Adams and Gordon both appeared in the commentary room at least twice. I agree that the commentary was very good.
I must have miss that but I bet the commentary was good.
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

User avatar
IM Jack Rudd
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:13 am
Location: Bideford

Re: Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Post by IM Jack Rudd » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:20 pm

John Reyes wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:57 pm
something along the line of if a player does get DQ then the match point is award, but the graded game should not!!
The trouble with that is that the counter-strategy will emerge: players will deliberately walk off with their phone in losing positions.

John Reyes
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Re: Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Post by John Reyes » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:24 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:20 pm
John Reyes wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:57 pm
something along the line of if a player does get DQ then the match point is award, but the graded game should not!!
The trouble with that is that the counter-strategy will emerge: players will deliberately walk off with their phone in losing positions.
maybe someone in the ECF Forum could put something to word it in a common sense way!!
Any postings on here represent my personal views only

Andrew Zigmond
Posts: 1701
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Harrogate

Re: Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:36 pm

John Reyes wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:57 pm

Bad was the Issue that we are not allowed to talk about but maybe the ECF need to look at this and maybe think that something along the line of if a player does get DQ then the match point is award, but the graded game should not!!
I may be wrong but is it not the case that this regulation (game counts for grading once started) is a FIDE regulation and therefore not something the organisers of the British have any control over.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

John McKenna
Posts: 3693
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Post by John McKenna » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:38 pm

Above, I think Andrew has lost the plot in his role as ECF apologist. For what have FIDE to do with whether a game is ECF graded or not?
John Reyes wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:24 pm
IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:20 pm
John Reyes wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:57 pm
something along the line of if a player does get DQ then the match point is award, but the graded game should not!!
The trouble with that is that the counter-strategy will emerge: players will deliberately walk off with their phone in losing positions.
maybe someone in the ECF Forum could put something to word it in a common sense way!!
WHAT??

Oh, something along the lines of -

WARNING!

Handsets can be toxic to your chess. When playing place in purpose-built locked lead-lined safe under your chair and swallow key. Under no circimstances take safe with you when going to 'wash hands' as you may be accused of 'passing' the key in a cubicle...

DISCLAIMER: games annulled when a handset is used, in an adjourned game - to call a league official to point out that the caller is in an oh-so-losing position that they want to know if the game can be cancelled on the grounds that their opponent inadvertently, but entirely at his own risk, played out of grading order in the only empty seat (opposite the opposing capt. who drew with said opponent in previous match when the two rows of ducks aligned in grading order) - cannot be insured against loss of any kind including loss of game point, match or expected grading points.

By the way, the caller had double insurance - insurance that if he was losing he could call a technical foul and get the game annulled and insurance that if he was winning, or not losing, he could either resume the adjourned game or offer a draw and, as the lower-graded player, still hope to profit.

And, it's perfectly possible, after all of the above has happened for the pleader to safely use the handset to text his opponent to say - the game is over and a loss for your team, which loses you the match that would otherwise have been drawn. But don't take it personally because I've made sure the game will not be sent for grading thereby avoiding a personal loss to you, my addled adversary.

(It is true that I arrived after the match had started so at my own risk.)
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

E Michael White
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:31 pm

Re: Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Post by E Michael White » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:40 pm

Jack's original post on this arrived at the correct outcome but via incorrect reasoning. A useful skill to have.

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:54 pm
John Moore wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:47 pm
When Lorin was defaulted, does Charlie get the rating points. Just a thought.
Yes, because the game had started.
A game has started after White has made the first move. The FIDE regulations state that for a game to count for rating each player must have made at least one move.

This is covered by FIDE Rating Regulations (not the FIDE game Laws). So stereotypical English arbiters need not jump up and down waiving the Laws and its preface in the air.

As far as English players are concerned there are numerous points of issue particularly if a phone sounds before Black has made his first move eg:-
  1. The ECF grading rules state that FIDE laws have to apply but do not mention the FIDE rating regulations , which means a game could be ECF graded but not FIDE rated.
  2. It would probably be as well if eligibility for ECF grading and FIDE rating were the same.
  3. If Blacks first move is declared illegal but not corrected before his phone sounded - illegal moves are never made only completed. Tim Harding and Brian Towers on past postings may disagree with me on that.
  4. If Blacks illegal first move is completed and immediately black's phone sounded.
  5. Of course these situations are unlikely to come about but could.

John McKenna
Posts: 3693
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 pm

Re: Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Post by John McKenna » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:03 pm

EMW<… 1. The ECF grading rules state that FIDE laws have to apply but do not mention the FIDE rating regulations , which means a game could be ECF graded but not FIDE rated. 2…>

Yes, "a game could be ECF graded... " at the ECF's discretion NOT - as someone tried to imply - at FIDE's dictat.
To find a for(u)m that accommodates the mess, that is the task of the artist now. (Samuel Beckett)

Alex Holowczak
Posts: 8880
Joined: Sat May 30, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Oldbury, Worcestershire
Contact:

Re: Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Post by Alex Holowczak » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:25 pm

E Michael White wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:40 pm
A game has started after White has made the first move. The FIDE regulations state that for a game to count for rating each player must have made at least one move.

This is covered by FIDE Rating Regulations (not the FIDE game Laws). So stereotypical English arbiters need not jump up and down waiving the Laws and its preface in the air.

As far as English players are concerned there are numerous points of issue particularly if a phone sounds before Black has made his first move eg:-

(...)
I refer the honorable gentleman to Delchev-Conquest in the European Team Championship all those years ago, where precisely this scenario happened, and the game was rated.

Ian Thompson
Posts: 2109
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:31 pm
Location: Awbridge, Hampshire

Re: Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Post by Ian Thompson » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:55 pm

E Michael White wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:40 pm
A game has started after White has made the first move.
Law 6.6 implies that the game has started when White's clock is started.

E Michael White
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 6:31 pm

Re: Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Post by E Michael White » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:27 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:25 pm
I refer the honorable gentleman to Delchev-Conquest in the European Team Championship all those years ago, where precisely this scenario happened, and the game was rated.
I knew that game which occurred 10 years ago. However I didn't mention it because I do not know without looking it up what the Rating regulations were then. I don't remember anyone referring to the rating regulations so maybe they were different back then or overlooked or perhaps arbiters present thought that a game once started should be rated. Were you there ?
Ian Thompson wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:55 pm
Law 6.6 implies that the game has started when White's clock is started.
Up until 2014 the Laws said White commenced the game in section 1. The wording was improved as when White is about to play his first move the rules determine that White doesn't "have the move" but instead "commences the game". Which among others means the j'adoube move doesn't apply on White's first move and White can leave the playing area without informing the arbiter. I don't think the current wording deals satisfactorily with those issues. AH was probably at that rules meeting and may have more info. However when and how games are regarded as starting does not seem to me to overwrite the rating regulations I quoted.
Last edited by E Michael White on Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

Li Wu
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Post by Li Wu » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:49 pm

Commentary was top notch this year for me as well.

Kevin Thurlow
Posts: 2924
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Good/Bad things from the British 2019

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:05 pm

"So stereotypical English arbiters need not jump up and down waiving the Laws and its preface in the air."

I know it's a typo, but I think you mean "waving"! Arbiters should definitely not "waive" the laws...

I regard the start of the round as the start of the game. After I have delivered a preferably short speech (which always mentions mobile phones, I tend to say something like, "Good luck and start white's clock." I reckon any offence (etc.) after that is during the game, but of course I might be waiving the Laws...

Post Reply