English Chess Forum

NickFaulks wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:33 am

Keith Arkell wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:16 am

Spot the logical fallacy: the claim that a 'conspiracy' is unlikely because 'only Keith cares', when were there 𝗮𝗰𝘁𝘂𝗮𝗹𝗹𝘆 a conspiracy then the very thought that 'Keith cared' would give the conspirators their satisfaction.

My mistake. I was assuming that any such conspiracy would be directed towards giving the title to a favoured candidate, not part of an ongoing campaign by the rest of the world against you.

You're correct that it's your mistake, but your mistake is in thinking that a 'conspiracy' requires the complicity of 'the rest of the world', whereas in reality it need only require two people. Your other mistake is to believe that it need require an 'ongoing campaign' whereas a one-off action would suffice.

Anyway, to re-iterate, of course there isn't a 'conspiracy'. For that to be the case would at the very least require another with the same attitude towards me as the 2018 Paignton chief organiser.

So no 'conspiracy' , but that doesn't change the fact that it is reasonable to hope for an explanation for why 4 points were lopped off the Federation's version of my 'final' score. A May Leader-board showing me being 1 point behind instead of 3 points ahead might tempt me to nip off to a Rapidplay somewhere.

Michael Farthing wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:20 am

The post of Controller of the Grand Prix is listed on the ECF website as vacant so anyone who cares greatly could offer to sort the situation out by volunteering for the post. Better than non-volunteers complaining that volunteers are not working hard enough.

I'm not sure whether this is aimed at me, but if so I should point out that I neither requested nor was asked whether I would like to have my name included in the ECF Grand Prix. However, as they chose to include my name then I think it reasonable that I request errors of at least 4 months standing be addressed.

Anyway, to avoid being involved in any further nonsense of this nature, I've made a request to the Director of Home Chess to leave my name off any Leaderboards this season.

Keith Arkell wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:25 pm

For that to be the case would at the very least require another with the same attitude towards me as the 2018 Paignton chief organiser.

Ah, this sounds like the real story, but I'm not going to ask.

NickFaulks wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:00 pm

Keith Arkell wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:25 pm

For that to be the case would at the very least require another with the same attitude towards me as the 2018 Paignton chief organiser.

Ah, this sounds like the real story, but I'm not going to ask.

Surely we will only know the 'real story', as you put it, when we receive the explanation for why I have been docked 4 points, leading to my being overtaken by a point.

I doubt any kind of 'conspiracy', but if the May leaderboard was wrong, then misleading me in such a highly relevant manner is an error of greater magnitude than, for example, an organiser being late reporting a result, or a tournament result being lost amongst League results. Certainly the May Leaderboard can have nothing to do with Paignton. If that were included then I would have 681 points.

Here is as screenshot of that May Leaderboard, and remember that the so-called final scores are now given by the ECF as 1. Y.H. 664, 2. K.A 663!

I don't really know how the Grand Prix works, so I may be talking through my hat here, but my long experience in clerical work tells me that when you get errors like this you never really sort them out until you go back and work through the whole thing from the start, or at least from the point, if any, where everybody agrees everything was all right up to then. Which may be something of a daunting prospect,

JustinHorton wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:48 am

I don't really know how the Grand Prix works, so I may be talking through my hat here, but my long experience in clerical work tells me that when you get errors like this you never really sort them out until you go back and work through the whole thing from the start, or at least from the point, if any, where everybody agrees everything was all right up to then. Which may be something of a daunting prospect.

A point I made some pages ago. Keith might not be the only player who could dredge up a few extra points given the time and the inclination.

NickFaulks wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:06 am

JustinHorton wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:48 am

I don't really know how the Grand Prix works, so I may be talking through my hat here, but my long experience in clerical work tells me that when you get errors like this you never really sort them out until you go back and work through the whole thing from the start, or at least from the point, if any, where everybody agrees everything was all right up to then. Which may be something of a daunting prospect.

A point I made some pages ago. Keith might not be the only player who could dredge up a few extra points given the time and the inclination.

There's a big difference between finding a few points that were missed, and having points taken away from you

I'm hoping that the ECF are going to answer Keith's queries, preferably in a positive way

"I'm hoping that the ECF are going to answer Keith's queries, preferably in a positive way"

I tend to the view if people don't answer, it is because they cannot...

NickFaulks wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:06 am

JustinHorton wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:48 am

I don't really know how the Grand Prix works, so I may be talking through my hat here, but my long experience in clerical work tells me that when you get errors like this you never really sort them out until you go back and work through the whole thing from the start, or at least from the point, if any, where everybody agrees everything was all right up to then. Which may be something of a daunting prospect.

A point I made some pages ago. Keith might not be the only player who could dredge up a few extra points given the time and the inclination.

Nick, your inane swipes are getting rather tiresome. I think you need to go away from this conversation now, as you clearly have nothing of value to add. That I have the 'time and inclination' to pursue this is far more natural than that you do. As you very well know, I have not 'dredged up' any extra points. Instead, I have had points removed - both as described above and also by their disqualification of my victory at 2018 Paignton Premier.

Hi Justin. You are absolutely right, but I have a very specific purpose for highlighting the fact that the ECF misled me into believing that I was leading with a few weeks to go:

They are clearly on the verge of disqualifying my victory at Paignton, either because it was sent to the 'League' section of their records rather than the ' Tournament' section, or because it was reported more than a month late, or because it was sitting unopened in the inbox of some official. Anyway, whatever reason they give won't change that their argument will be that if the results appear more than a month late then it misleads my rivals over my apparent score. Hence my reason for highlighting their far greater error of posting a leaderboard with a month to go which lists me as leading, only to reveal, when it was too late for me to play any more tournaments, that I wasn't really leading, because they removed 4 points from my score.

Either their strangely intelligent computer deducted those 4 points, or an actual person did it and is keeping quiet about it.

So I say this to the ECF. Please think twice before you decide to disqualify my victory at Paignton, as your balls up with the May Leaderboard is of a far greater magnitude than the balls up of the Paignton organiser in sending the result in late, or to 'Leagues' or whatever he did.

Mick Norris wrote: ↑

Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:10 am

I'm hoping that the ECF are going to answer Keith's queries, preferably in a positive way

Thanks Mick It will be a good test to see whether the phrase 'natural justice' means anything to them.

Methinks it is time to invoke the famous "Ask the Director" feature of the ECF web site.

Will the DoHC (Adrian Elwin) make his thoughts known on this matter ?

J.

"Methinks it is time to invoke the famous "Ask the Director" feature of the ECF web site."

I got the impression that Keith contacted ECF in the first place and when he didn't get a reply, he mentioned it here? This seems an entirely reasonable thing to do.

Hi Kevin, and good to see you at the Bristol blitz.

Sometimes there can be a bit of a wait when you email, sometimes not. On here you always get an instant reply. And you get to see diverse opinions!

And posting on here seems to help immensely, sometimes. For example it helped us get a quick result when we needed it in defeating the bureaucratic 'kerfuffle' trying to prevent us having more than one qualifying date for the British Blitz Ch, and after an interminable wait it resulted ( perhaps by chance!) in a next day resolution of the issue of GM fees for the British Ch.

As the ECF Grand Prix job is listed as vacant I thought I'd again start on here. I have since then been in direct contact with Adrian, but by that time the thread was in full swing. Adrian and I have exchanged emails in the last hour, and I trust that the exceptional circumstances of the misleading May Leaderboard will neutralise any issues over Paignton, but first he will investigate...

I wonder why the ECF does not appear to have responded to this? (I hope it does so soon! I would otherwise raise the question at the upcoming ECF council, however, it is possible that I may not have returned from abroad by then)

Keith Arkell wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:25 pm

Anyway, to avoid being involved in any further nonsense of this nature, I've made a request to the Director of Home Chess to leave my name off any Leaderboards this season.

Under GDPR, the right to restrict processing, and the right of rectification applies - the ECF would have a month to deal with the removal (if the order on the list isn't resolved in due course, presumably?)

It puzzles me why they even need to investigate 𝒘𝒉𝒚 they published a Leaderboard in May which falsely led me to believe I was leading. For the time being it is enough that it happened.

Or is it too far fetched to imagine that they are considering wiping out my Paignton victory because it was reported to the ECF in December rather than September (which I now know to be the case) , but yet doing nothing about their gross deception of falsely leading me to believe I was leading at the end of may? Were that unlikely scenario to be the case then it would not be unreasonable to suspect 'conspiracy'. However, that would be entering cloud cuckoo land.

Hok Yin Stephen Chiu wrote: ↑

Thu Oct 03, 2019 3:55 am

I wonder why the ECF does not appear to have responded to this? (I hope it does so soon! I would otherwise raise the question at the upcoming ECF council, however, it is possible that I may not have returned from abroad by then)

Keith Arkell wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:25 pm

Anyway, to avoid being involved in any further nonsense of this nature, I've made a request to the Director of Home Chess to leave my name off any Leaderboards this season.

Under GDPR, the right to restrict processing, and the right of rectification applies - the ECF would have a month to deal with the removal (if the order on the list isn't resolved in due course, presumably?)

The ECF do appear to have responded, or at least Keith has noted that he is in contact with Adrian Elwin who (like every other member of the board) is under no obligation to participate in an unofficial forum. A statement may be needed in due course but isn't necessary while the matter is still being investigated.

I returned from the Isle of Man to find this nice shiny trophy awaiting me.

Thank you ECF!