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Angus French
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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Angus French » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:25 am

I think Tim has a point. The type of complaint - against the CEO and possibly other Board members - isn't one that's currently envisaged by the Complaints Procedure so arguably Tim, as the complainant, ought to have been consulted about the appointment of an outside adjudication panel.

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Chris Goodall
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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Chris Goodall » Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:34 pm

Angus French wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:25 am
I think Tim has a point. The type of complaint - against the CEO and possibly other Board members - isn't one that's currently envisaged by the Complaints Procedure so arguably Tim, as the complainant, ought to have been consulted about the appointment of an outside adjudication panel.
Without commenting on the merits of the claim, I disagree. Complaints against the CEO are envisaged by the procedure. Complaints against the CEO and possibly others are complaints against the CEO. If by widening your complaint to include the others, you earn yourself the right of veto over the adjudication panel, you guarantee that any future complaint against the CEO will include at the bottom "and such other members of the Board as may or may not have been up to unspecified dodgy dealings". It's a free lunch. That can't have been the intention of the complaints procedure drafters.
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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:41 pm

Chris Goodall wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:34 pm
That can't have been the intention of the complaints procedure drafters.
The intent in 2015 may well have been to stop the Complaints Procedure being used for Directors to fight one another which increasingly had become a practice. I could, without direct evidence, suspect a Director's row in this case about the appointment of the Development Officer, or perhaps the terms of reference for the position. That could have lead to the delayed announcement of the appointment.

But why bother with interviews if the desired appointee was already known? Which is Tim's question more or less.

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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by David Robertson » Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:53 pm

Is any of this that important? I mean, really - is it?

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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Chris Goodall » Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:09 pm

David Robertson wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:53 pm
Is any of this that important? I mean, really - is it?
Chess is not that important, David. Go fix the climate or something.
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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:46 pm

Having read the Complaints Procedure it doesn't say anything about a) an independent committee being formed to hear the complaint or b) the complainant being obliged to approve the members of this committee (in theory the complainant might never be satisfied - perhaps the procedure should allow one rejection of any committee with the second selection being binding). In any case, given that this complaint does encompass the wider board and the governance committee, I think the ECF has acted with integrity in appointing an independent body to consider the complaint.

It's perhaps worth noting that we are in uncharted territory here as the complaint concerns an alleged breach of due process. The two previous known complaints largely concerned a board member allegedly using unprofessional language.
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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Angus French » Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:00 pm

Chris Goodall wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:34 pm
Angus French wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:25 am
I think Tim has a point. The type of complaint - against the CEO and possibly other Board members - isn't one that's currently envisaged by the Complaints Procedure so arguably Tim, as the complainant, ought to have been consulted about the appointment of an outside adjudication panel.
Without commenting on the merits of the claim, I disagree. Complaints against the CEO are envisaged by the procedure. Complaints against the CEO and possibly others are complaints against the CEO. If by widening your complaint to include the others, you earn yourself the right of veto over the adjudication panel, you guarantee that any future complaint against the CEO will include at the bottom "and such other members of the Board as may or may not have been up to unspecified dodgy dealings". It's a free lunch. That can't have been the intention of the complaints procedure drafters.
Yes, fair enough. Though there is still the issue of the decision to appoint an independent panel (which isn't in the procedure).

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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Angus French » Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:04 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:46 pm
... or b) the complainant being obliged to approve the members of this committee (in theory the complainant might never be satisfied - perhaps the procedure should allow one rejection of any committee with the second selection being binding)...
Who's talking about approval?

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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Angus French » Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:09 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:41 pm
I could, without direct evidence, suspect a Director's row in this case about the appointment of the Development Officer, or perhaps the terms of reference for the position. That could have lead to the delayed announcement of the appointment...
Well, yes. It might also explain the decision to create a Women's Recruitment Officer position.

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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:14 pm

Angus French wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:00 pm
[Yes, fair enough. Though there is still the issue of the decision to appoint an independent panel (which isn't in the procedure).
I'm hearing a lot here about what the ECF should not have done, but very little about what they should have. If the complaints procedure as it stands had followed who would be hearing the complaint?

Angus' reply to my original post came through as I was typing this. While Tim Wall's main complaint appears to be that he was not advised of the panel being appointed beforehand he has asked why this particular committee and who made the decision. I appreciate he has stopped short of saying he doesn't wish this particular panel to hear the dispute but there already seems to be an element of a defensive fallback in case the panel does not uphold the complaint.
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Chris Goodall
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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Chris Goodall » Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:27 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:14 pm
Angus French wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:00 pm
[Yes, fair enough. Though there is still the issue of the decision to appoint an independent panel (which isn't in the procedure).
I appreciate he has stopped short of saying he doesn't wish this particular panel to hear the dispute but there already seems to be an element of a defensive fallback in case the panel does not uphold the complaint.
That's why there needs to be a presumption against... I forget the legal term, but an "explosion of questions".

A decision gets made; you don't like the decision. But you don't feel like giving up, so you not only appeal against a) the decision, you also appeal against b) the wording of the document announcing the decision, c) the competence of the decision-makers to make the decision, d) the competence of the people who appointed those people, e) the validity of the election of the people who appointed those people, f) the timing of the decision, g) the venue, and h) the size of the postcard on which you had to write your statement rebutting the encyclopedia that the opposing side wrote.

And then of course, if any of those appeals doesn't go in your favour, you apply the same process to them in an endless recursion. So any time a question gets resolved, it makes the pile of outstanding questions larger, not smaller.
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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by John Moore » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:15 pm

Chris Goodall wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:27 pm
Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:14 pm
Angus French wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:00 pm
[Yes, fair enough. Though there is still the issue of the decision to appoint an independent panel (which isn't in the procedure).
I appreciate he has stopped short of saying he doesn't wish this particular panel to hear the dispute but there already seems to be an element of a defensive fallback in case the panel does not uphold the complaint.
That's why there needs to be a presumption against... I forget the legal term, but an "explosion of questions".

A decision gets made; you don't like the decision. But you don't feel like giving up, so you not only appeal against a) the decision, you also appeal against b) the wording of the document announcing the decision, c) the competence of the decision-makers to make the decision, d) the competence of the people who appointed those people, e) the validity of the election of the people who appointed those people, f) the timing of the decision, g) the venue, and h) the size of the postcard on which you had to write your statement rebutting the encyclopedia that the opposing side wrote.

And then of course, if any of those appeals doesn't go in your favour, you apply the same process to them in an endless recursion. So any time a question gets resolved, it makes the pile of outstanding questions larger, not smaller.
Chris, anyone who has worked at a reasonably senior level in either the public or private sector will recognise the process to which you refer in your second and third paragraphs. You have to be able to say that we have investigated as far as possible, this is our decision and this is where it stops. In the public sector, this doesn't work very well and it can go on and on. Incidentally, David Robertson is, of course, right and equally it's boring as hell (but not to Tim, of course), but I did rather like your response to David.

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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by JustinHorton » Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:41 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:14 pm
While Tim Wall's main complaint appears to be that he was not advised of the panel being appointed beforehand he has asked why this particular committee and who made the decision. I appreciate he has stopped short of saying he doesn't wish this particular panel to hear the dispute but there already seems to be an element of a defensive fallback in case the panel does not uphold the complaint.
On the other hand, if he's not happy either with the panel or with the manner of its appointment (I have no opinion on the matter either way, for the record) what is he supposed to do, if not say so?
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Chris Goodall
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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Chris Goodall » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:00 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:41 pm
On the other hand, if he's not happy either with the panel or with the manner of its appointment (I have no opinion on the matter either way, for the record) what is he supposed to do, if not say so?
Blog about it for everyone else's entertainment, obviously :roll:
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