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JustinHorton
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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:33 pm

Sure. I was wondering though how such things usually work. I don't think I've ever had any relevant experience.
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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:51 pm

Coming back to the central issue, while my sympathy for Tim Wall is somewhat limited, I note [and I have said this before and so apologise for the repetition] that the dating of Carl Portman's communication remains unexplained. To that extent, I feel Tim has a fair point.

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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Angus French » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:11 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:51 pm
Coming back to the central issue, while my sympathy for Tim Wall is somewhat limited, I note [and I have said this before and so apologise for the repetition] that the dating of Carl Portman's communication remains unexplained. To that extent, I feel Tim has a fair point.
Well, there was this:
Tim's complaint letter of 17 October - see OP wrote:I would further note that Robert Stern’s purely verbal explanation – not written, mind – to me on the side-lines of the ECF AGM in London on October 12 about the “Credo” document and its dating was somewhat bizarre, to say the least. Robert said: “Carl told us he submitted that document at his job interview on September 13.” [my emboldening]

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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:18 pm

Angus French wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:11 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:51 pm
Coming back to the central issue, while my sympathy for Tim Wall is somewhat limited, I note [and I have said this before and so apologise for the repetition] that the dating of Carl Portman's communication remains unexplained. To that extent, I feel Tim has a fair point.
Well, there was this:
Tim's complaint letter of 17 October wrote:I would further note that Robert Stern’s purely verbal explanation – not written, mind – to me on the side-lines of the ECF AGM in London on October 12 about the “Credo” document and its dating was somewhat bizarre, to say the least. Robert said: “Carl told us he submitted that document at his job interview on September 13.” [my emboldening]
I'd missed that, Angus. I'm not too enthusiastic over an account which is basically "Tim says Robert says Carl says" but, if it is factually correct, then it begs more questions than it answers. I don't recall ever attending an interview, as a candidate, and bringing with me a long acceptance letter.

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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:45 pm

"I don't recall ever attending an interview, as a candidate, and bringing with me a long acceptance letter."

However, if you guess one of the questions will be, "How are you going to do the job?", you might turn up with a draft document and say, "I'll send something like this to people." That doesn't seem strange to me.

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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:54 pm

Just as a side issue, I wouldn't mind if Carl came out with a great deal less inspirational-BS stuff, including half-chewed quotes he's got off the internet. (I just came across "A Roman writer once said if you want to make war you need money", and I immediately find myself thinking (a) what are you doing with this quote except proving that you look up quotes you think are appropriate (b) either name the writer or don't both (c) I'm far from sure it was either a Roman or a writer as such.)
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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:22 pm

Kevin Thurlow wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:45 pm
"I don't recall ever attending an interview, as a candidate, and bringing with me a long acceptance letter."

However, if you guess one of the questions will be, "How are you going to do the job?", you might turn up with a draft document and say, "I'll send something like this to people." That doesn't seem strange to me.
Point well made but, in that case, I wouldn't expect the document to start with "I am delighted to have taken up this post"

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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Chris Goodall » Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:43 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:51 pm
Coming back to the central issue, while my sympathy for Tim Wall is somewhat limited, I note [and I have said this before and so apologise for the repetition] that the dating of Carl Portman's communication remains unexplained. To that extent, I feel Tim has a fair point.
He makes assorted fair points on assorted subjects, but the threshold for a complaint is a "serious case of misadministration". It hasn't even been established that there was a case of administration. The Board made a decision that was clearly in their remit to make. The Board also has responsibility for assigning complaints to independent outsiders, and assigning complaints about their assigning of complaints to independent outsiders to independent outsiders, and so on in an infinite regress. The Board is going to mark their own homework one way or another.

You are right about the apparent discrepancy between unanimous decisions and... animous decisions, when it comes to the standard of review. If you want to get a second bite at the cherry for no reason at all, just schedule a tournament for the same day as the Board meeting, and invite Malcolm Pein to come present the prizes.

It strikes me that Alex Holowczak could cut the Gordian knot at this point, by intervening on behalf of the four directors not present for the initial decision, taking the matter out of the hands of Pearce, Wood and Emerson, and referring it to an entirely different three-person panel of Wood, Emerson and Pearce.

I don't know how to @ people on this forum, so I shall quote him instead because I know that sends him a notification.
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I [...] request [...] £10. [...] The amount [...] would appear [...] nothing [...] whatsoever.

Speaking as a fellow [...] of a variety of statures [...] I think it's very poor to keep hold of [...] 98% of the players [...] in 2% of the cases.
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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:15 pm

Chris Goodall wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:43 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:51 pm
Coming back to the central issue, while my sympathy for Tim Wall is somewhat limited, I note [and I have said this before and so apologise for the repetition] that the dating of Carl Portman's communication remains unexplained. To that extent, I feel Tim has a fair point.
He makes assorted fair points on assorted subjects, but the threshold for a complaint is a "serious case of misadministration". It hasn't even been established that there was a case of administration. The Board made a decision that was clearly in their remit to make. The Board also has responsibility for assigning complaints to independent outsiders, and assigning complaints about their assigning of complaints to independent outsiders to independent outsiders, and so on in an infinite regress. The Board is going to mark their own homework one way or another.
Well, the decision to appoint a Development Officer was certainly within the Board's remit but what is being argued - if I understand Tim correctly - is that all candidates were not treated equally. In support of this, he evidences Carl's document. The Governance Committee has seemingly looked at the matter and concluded that nothing improper occurred, which routinely should have ended the matter because - as you say - one can't continue with endless appeals. Having said all that, if there was a satisfactory explanation as to the date of that letter, this whole matter could have been killed off a long time ago. The absence of any explanation does, I have to say, leave me a little uneasy.

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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Chris Goodall » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:27 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:15 pm
Having said all that, if there was a satisfactory explanation as to the date of that letter, this whole matter could have been killed off a long time ago. The absence of any explanation does, I have to say, leave me a little uneasy.
Suppose Carl walked out of the interview having been told that the job was his once the Board signed off on it. So what? That's a perfectly lawful way of hiring people. Tim has accepted that the Board is not going to fire Carl and hire him instead, so there isn't a "matter" there. There's just Tim's - as he puts it - "tears and strong emotions before bedtime", and I cannot see those going away until we get it through our heads that being the 128th-best player in England is a one-of-a-kind skill set that deserves to be appropriately remunerated.
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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:40 pm

Chris Goodall wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:27 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:15 pm
Having said all that, if there was a satisfactory explanation as to the date of that letter, this whole matter could have been killed off a long time ago. The absence of any explanation does, I have to say, leave me a little uneasy.
Suppose Carl walked out of the interview having been told that the job was his once the Board signed off on it. So what?
That doesn't bother me. What does, at least somewhat, is if Carl walked into the interview having been told that the job was his.

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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by John Reyes » Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:56 am

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 4:37 pm
TimWall wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:06 pm
Adam Ashton wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:12 am
I wish you applied this level of scrutiny to your own tournaments rules and regulations. I'm still waiting for the grounds on which you refused to refund my wife the difference in entry fee when she changed from the open to the lower section at Northumberland, since you did not inform her of any such penalty at the time (quite the opposite you said it was no problem).
Hi Adam,
I did consider Yaoyao's complaint very carefully, but found that there was no refund due - a decision that was supported by all the arbiters who had to deal with the various inconveniences before Round 1. I explained this to Yaoyao in person at the English Women's Championship in Hull a few days after the Northumbria Masters, but sadly she did not accept my explanation. I am therefore stating the facts for the record.

I explained to Yaoyao that she and two friends:
a) entered late, and were therefore due to pay a late entry fee of £10 each;
b) entered the wrong tournaments, but we accommodated them so they could enter a different tournament at the last moment;
c) accepted one of the players, who did not have a FIDE ID code and had not checked with his national federation before entering (as was required on the online entry form and website). We took time out to arrange for this player to play under English affiliation after the start of Round 2, so that they could play in the tournament.
d) Allowed the player without a national or FIDE rating to enter a rating limited tournament. The player then won one of the main prizes.
e) Accommodated all three players by giving them half-point byes in Round 1 due to transport delays, even though the confirmation that they would not get to the venue in time came after the time designated for the publication of the first round draw.
I realise the topic of conversation is drifting away from the subject (and I see Adam said much the same but got in first), but...

a) would seem to reduce the refund request by £10.
b) would seem to increase the refund request by the amount of the difference in entry fee between the two sections.
c) to e) would appear to have nothing to do with the entry fee and its potential to be refunded whatsoever.

Speaking as a fellow organiser of events of a variety of statures, including those of the stature of the Northumbria Masters, I think it's very poor to keep hold of money in excess to what should have been paid just because they caused you some organisational problems and extra work. In a typical tournament, 98% of the players have no issues, and some of these things might happen in 2% of the cases. The job of the orgnaiser is to help/sort out these cases, not to decide to charge more money for it. For one thing, it's very poor PR and that can be worth more than the cost of the money you refund.
Thanks for this.
Adam did have a Valid point there and at the end of the day if they was in the right, then they should have got a refund etc of the difference etc.


On to Tim Complaint to the ECF Board
i understand why he did this but i feel that putting Julian comments here, should have left off here as it's is a lot of who got the largest voice to say something and at the end of the day, we should be looking to put this to bed asap
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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Brian Towers » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:31 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:15 pm
Well, the decision to appoint a Development Officer was certainly within the Board's remit but what is being argued - if I understand Tim correctly - is that all candidates were not treated equally. In support of this, he evidences Carl's document. The Governance Committee has seemingly looked at the matter and concluded that nothing improper occurred
There is, of course, nothing inconsistent with the board ruling that in their opinion "nothing improper occurred" and "all candidates were not treated equally" and the board knowing that. They may have thought that it was perfectly proper for candidates to be treated differently (feel free, if wearing your tinfoil hat, to insert "especially if one of them is called Tim Wall") and the fact they chose the form of words they did does nothing to dispel this view.
Ah, but I was so much older then. I'm younger than that now.

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Re: Complaint to ECF Board about CEO Mike Truran re. Development Officer appointment

Post by Roger Lancaster » Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:26 pm

Brian Towers wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:31 pm
There is, of course, nothing inconsistent with the board ruling that in their opinion "nothing improper occurred" and "all candidates were not treated equally" and the board knowing that. They may have thought that it was perfectly proper for candidates to be treated differently (feel free, if wearing your tinfoil hat, to insert "especially if one of them is called Tim Wall") and the fact they chose the form of words they did does nothing to dispel this view.
In my experience there are two reasons why the objectively best candidate [in as much as any selection process is capable of being totally objective] is not offered the post. The first is where someone gets an offer which takes no regard of the selection process, as in - but not necessarily restricted to - a "jobs for the boys" situation. The second is where appointment of the best performer would cause significant problems, for example, where it is clear that the existing team would find it impossible to work alongside the newcomer. However, any statement that "all candidates were not treated equally" is merely a hypothesis and I see no clear reason to suppose that either ["we love Carl" or "we hate Tim"] scenario applied here.

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