British Championship Congress 2021

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
MartinCarpenter
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by MartinCarpenter » Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:24 am

Ian Thompson wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:15 am
Mick Norris wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:18 pm
I am just glad that I am not the one making the decisions
Agreed. There's a possibility now that the leader is excluded from the tournament because his chess.com account has been closed, but his results from the first 8 rounds stand because the Ken Regan analysis software says "not guilty", or at least "not proven".
The last of which is obviously very likely :( Unless they've been cheating really blatantly then 8 games really isn't very much of an evidence base at all.

Alex McFarlane
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Alex McFarlane » Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:59 am

I will start by saying that I am not involved in this event and have no knowledge of it other than what I have seen here. Therefore what I am saying is of a more general nature.

Firstly, there are two parts to the Regan test. The first can be carried out quite quickly but the second will normally take a day for the results to be known.
The first test would normally alert to the possibility of cheating taking place and additional scrutiny would follow. The second is more comprehensive.
It is therefore quite possible that a player who had been under suspicion for a number of rounds would only be found 'guilty' after a further game and after the more detailed test. In such a case there is absolutely no reason why earlier games would not then be recorded as a loss for that player.
The result given to each opponent would then need to be considered.

It is certainly annoying for all parties when the threshold is only crossed late in the tournament as so many players are affected by it. Remember it is not just that player's opponents who have 'suffered' but if a strong player has lost by foul means then their next opponent is playing someone stronger than they should, and so on.

When a case is proven late on then there is really no totally satisfactory way of resolving the resultant situation.

The organisers of any event affected in this way have difficult decisions to make. These decisions cannot please everyone.

It should also be noted that the situation becomes even more complicated when the evidence or suspicion of cheating is not present until later in the event. For example, if there is only 'evidence' of cheating in later rounds of an event, say from round 4, what would the person who lost to the accused in the third round feel if they still have a loss but the round 4 opponent is given a win?

In situations like these there are no easy answers.

Kevin Thurlow
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:49 am

"The organisers of any event affected in this way have difficult decisions to make. These decisions cannot please everyone.

It should also be noted that the situation becomes even more complicated when the evidence or suspicion of cheating is not present until later in the event. For example, if there is only 'evidence' of cheating in later rounds of an event, say from round 4, what would the person who lost to the accused in the third round feel if they still have a loss but the round 4 opponent is given a win?

In situations like these there are no easy answers."

Totally agree. Chess.com ban people on sometimes flimsy evidence and then score all their games as losses. I recently gained rating points as a previous opponent had been banned, but my loss to him/her was caused by my bad moves. At least Ken Regan's work is more convincing. Another problem is that if the lower-rated opponent wins, people get suspicious and everyone is entitled to have a good tournament.

I appreciate it is very difficult to get things right, but what I would really like is for ECF to be less secretive. They claim that it infringes people's privacy to even say there's an accusation, which I doubt. But ECF won't even say, "We had 50 complaints and we found 8 people guilty".

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Jon Tait
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Jon Tait » Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:25 pm

IM Jack Rudd wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:03 pm
Well, there was this game, which attracted a bit of comment elsewhere:
Supposing White is cheating then it's quite subtly done. Stockfish considers that White gave away his opening advantage on move 15. after which the game was fairly equal for a long time, until Keith went wrong at move 48. Stockfish then considers White's 50th to be a mistake, had Keith not blundered by reply.

The "Swiss Gambit" of scoring ½/2 in the first couple of rounds is a nice touch too. White has made it to 6½/8 while only playing two titled players. Of course there aren't many in the event at all.

I'd also like to see how Mark Hebden managed to lose three times to low rated players.

How it's done, if it's being done, is therefore interesting. I'd guess that just using an engine as a blunder check would be a major boost. Certainly I'd be a much higher rated OTB player than I am if I didn't make some abysmal move somewhere in almost every game. I'd also have several wins against Hebden myself, instead of an unending string of zeroes :roll:
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/

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Jon Tait
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Jon Tait » Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:35 pm

Well, the leader has been disqualified now anyway...

https://chess-results.com/tnr569793.asp ... =30&snr=35
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/

Keith Arkell
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Keith Arkell » Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:00 pm

I have requested that an arbiter be present at both my house and my opponent's house for my last round game. With the British Championship title at stake this seems eminently sensible for lots of reasons.

I have offered to foot the bill for this, and a local arbiter, John Ariss, had already volunteered for my end.

Mick Norris
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Mick Norris » Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:08 pm

Good luck Keith
Any postings on here represent my personal views and should not be taken as representative of the Manchester Chess Federation www.manchesterchess.co.uk

Keith Arkell
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Keith Arkell » Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:10 pm

Thanks Mick

Nick Ivell
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Nick Ivell » Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:41 pm

Keith, we know you can play. No one even THINKS you might be cheating. Same goes for Mark Hebden.

Keith Arkell
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Keith Arkell » Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:43 pm

It's the principle, Nick. My opponent and I should be treated equally. There should be an arbiter in both of our houses to oversee the game.

Keith Arkell
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Keith Arkell » Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:47 pm

In case any Arbiters in the London area would be willing to help out by travelling to Newham, then please email me - keitharkell@gmail.com or post on here.

The game would be very unlikely to go beyond about 9.30 pm this evening, and begins at 7.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:04 pm

Jon Tait wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:25 pm
Stockfish considers that White gave away his opening advantage on move 15. after which the game was fairly equal for a long time, until Keith went wrong at move 48. Stockfish then considers White's 50th to be a mistake, had Keith not blundered by reply.
I believe the commentators thought White's winning idea was difficult to spot especially from a few moves earlier.

But how often is anyone below IM level, let alone a player unknown OTB except a handful of games in BUCA ten years ago, able to trade blow for blow with Keith and maintain equality in a long ending or near ending?

Keith Arkell
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by Keith Arkell » Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:07 pm

The chief arbiter, Shohreh Bayat, has kindly agreed to go to my opponent's house, and Arbiter John Ariss has agreed to go to mine, so whatever the result, there can be no accusations.

David Sedgwick
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by David Sedgwick » Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:31 pm

Keith Arkell wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:07 pm
The chief arbiter, Shohreh Bayat, has kindly agreed to go to my opponent's house, and Arbiter John Ariss has agreed to go to mine, so whatever the result, there can be no accusations.
For the record, I offered to go to Newham when I saw your post, but I learned that the superior arrangement which you mention had already been made.

NickFaulks
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Re: British Championship Congress 2021

Post by NickFaulks » Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:38 pm

997 rating point difference on board 2. What are the odds?
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