Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Kevin Thurlow
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Re: Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Post by Kevin Thurlow » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:36 am

"All silver members received a notification of the election by email with the election addresses attached."

I don't doubt that, but if someone receives a random list of people and their statements, maybe the recipient either doesn't care who wins or doesn't know which way to vote. I used to get a long list of candidates and their statements for the Union election, pick 16 of these out of 24 total strangers...

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JustinHorton
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Re: Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:39 am

In that instance though there will have been slate statements available and the candidate statements should have given you a reasonable idea where they stood and with whom they were aligned.
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:59 am
I'm not in a position to assess whether the then CEO was a liar or simply lacked the intellect to realise he was being misled
This was a permanent difficulty.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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Roger Lancaster
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Re: Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:56 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:22 am
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:59 am
The then CEO publicly claimed to have looked into the matter and to have decided everything was in order. When the matter came before FIDE, FIDE promptly amended the Laws of Chess so that no such decision could be made [whether by the ECF or anyone else] in future.
If that's about whether it's possible to award players one and half points for a single game, a precedent had already been set at the 2010 British in the Major Open and it was regarded as an acceptable practice by British arbiters. The rules for qualification for the British the following year had already been changed to be based on absolute score rather than relative position. Had they still been based on position, anyone squeezed out by the award of extra points would have had valid cause for complaint.
Roger has correctly identified the casus belli but it's questionable whether this was "regarded as an acceptable practice by British arbiters" outwith the particular team tasked with arbiting the British championships. I can attest to the fact that I received several private messages and emails from other arbiters, some senior, and I think I'm correct in recalling that none gave unqualified support to the ECF decision - some were ambivalent whereas others [and I undertook not to identify anyone and so won't do so now] expressed the opinion that the decision was simply wrong. Some added that they believed there were certain circumstances where an award of 1.5 points could be justified [an example given was where a spectator's unlawful interruption resulted in a player, who was otherwise about to resign, instead winning a game] but noted that this was not one such circumstance. I was inclined to agree but the FIDE decision, in restraining the ECF in future, also removed any discretion an arbiter might have in such situations.

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:00 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:39 am
In that instance though there will have been slate statements available and the candidate statements should have given you a reasonable idea where they stood and with whom they were aligned.
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:59 am
I'm not in a position to assess whether the then CEO was a liar or simply lacked the intellect to realise he was being misled
This was a permanent difficulty.
I wasn't aware of Justin's difficulty but I can confirm that my separate experience of getting answers that were either timely or reliable from the CEO in question was similar to his. I don't always agree with responses with the present CEO but at least they don't suffer from either of those criticisms.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:06 pm

For what it's worth I don't think Phil was a liar as such, just strangely disconnected from the idea that what he said had any requirement to be accurate or that anybody had a reasonable expectation of this being so. The fact that his written English tended to the impenetrable didn't help here either.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Roger Lancaster
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Re: Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Post by Roger Lancaster » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:19 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:06 pm
For what it's worth I don't think Phil was a liar as such, just strangely disconnected from the idea that what he said had any requirement to be accurate or that anybody had a reasonable expectation of this being so. The fact that his written English tended to the impenetrable didn't help here either.
Very possibly true. I believe he was last heard of in the USA supporting Donald Trump about whom, strangely, similar things have been said.

Edit: I've since been told that he was running as a Democrat so I unreservedly withdraw this remark.
Last edited by Roger Lancaster on Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:20 pm

To be fair he was running as a Democrat so I don't think that's quite right
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

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LawrenceCooper
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Re: Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Post by LawrenceCooper » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:09 pm

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:19 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:06 pm
For what it's worth I don't think Phil was a liar as such, just strangely disconnected from the idea that what he said had any requirement to be accurate or that anybody had a reasonable expectation of this being so. The fact that his written English tended to the impenetrable didn't help here either.
Very possibly true. I believe he was last heard of in the USA supporting Donald Trump about whom, strangely, similar things have been said.

Edit: I've since been told that he was running as a Democrat so I unreservedly withdraw this remark.
He described himself as a lifelong Republican last year https://floridapolitics.com/archives/36 ... att-gaetz/

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JustinHorton
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Re: Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:44 pm

Yeah he was, but running for the Democrats as a Never Trumper.

Anyway, regardless of his particular elignment in US politics, he was in my experience incapable of giving an answer that was simultaneously straight, believable and coherent.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Paul Cooksey
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Re: Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Post by Paul Cooksey » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:50 pm

JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:06 pm
For what it's worth I don't think Phil was a liar as such, just strangely disconnected from the idea that what he said had any requirement to be accurate or that anybody had a reasonable expectation of this being so. The fact that his written English tended to the impenetrable didn't help here either.
My feeling is he did not consider the question very important because he did not think there was any chance of wrong doing by the tournament organiser. He probably handled that matter worse than Mike Truran would. Almost certainly Mike would have handled the FIDE issue Roger raises better, given Phil wasn't a chess player.

I don't agree with the strategic direction Mike set, I did agree with Phil. Noone on this forum should be surprised I favour ECF reform. But that wasn't really the point I was making. Almost everyone involved in the ECF in 2021 was involved in 2015, so even if Mike is personally more competent than Phil, on the whole it is the same people with the same level of competence.

Most of the people involved in the ECF now voted for Phil a few times, even if I am the only one who publicly remembers doing it. You can certainly say that he was unsuccessful as CEO, albeit after a successful stint as junior director but calling him inept is unfair. You can definitely say he was unpopular by the time he left. But I think most of that because he was trying to change the ECF in ways the ECF did not want to be changed.

I'm talking about this not because I have any residual loyalty to Phil, but because I don't think either Mike or Tim is a wrong'un. I think characterising Phil as a wrong'un plays into the narrative there is always a bad guy to be unmasked.

I hate the way the campaign against Mike Truran is being organised, and called it out here and in Council. But that is the kind of campaign we get if we allow an ECF culture where whenever there is a contested election we assume there is a good guy and a bad guy and our job is to work out which is which.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Post by Roger de Coverly » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:12 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:50 pm
My feeling is he did not consider the question very important because he did not think there was any chance of wrong doing by the tournament organiser.
There had been a parallel issue where it took several months to get the tournament organiser to admit that the prize fund had been reduced from that originally advertised. The English Seniors had been at Easter. By the time of the British Seniors in August when some of the players met up again, the prizes had still not been announced.

Arguably there was an issue for the ECF as to whether it wished to gain a reputation for cutting prize funds for an event held in its name.

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JustinHorton
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Re: Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Post by JustinHorton » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:13 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:50 pm
whenever there is a contested election we assume there is a good guy and a bad guy and our job is to work out which is which.
Isn't the fallacy here "whenever"?
Paul Cooksey wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:50 pm
calling him inept is unfair
I am struggling for an adjective that is both more friendly and more accurate.
"Do you play chess?"
"Yes, but I prefer a game with a better chance of cheating."

lostontime.blogspot.com

Paul Cooksey
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Re: Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Post by Paul Cooksey » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:17 pm

I'd accept "whenever" is too general but not a fallacy. Occasionally there is an election where the candidates act respectfully towards each other. But frankly that is bad politics, Tim is doing what is proven to work in ECF elections and trying to position himself as one of the good guys and Mike as one of the bad guys.

Of course you could say Tim is failing to paint himself as a good guy, perhaps he even knows that and is willing to take the hit for his team.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Post by LawrenceCooper » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:20 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:50 pm

I don't agree with the strategic direction Mike set, I did agree with Phil. Noone on this forum should be surprised I favour ECF reform. But that wasn't really the point I was making. Almost everyone involved in the ECF in 2021 was involved in 2015....
Possibly true with council but the board is very different. I can think of no more than four (Clissold, Holowczak, Pein (elected in 2015), Lawson) who have been there since or before 2015. From the time I escaped in 2014 only Alex (as Home Director) & Julian remain.

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Is Positive Change Coming To English Chess?

Post by Michael Farthing » Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:21 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:09 pm
Roger Lancaster wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:19 pm
JustinHorton wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:06 pm
For what it's worth I don't think Phil was a liar as such, just strangely disconnected from the idea that what he said had any requirement to be accurate or that anybody had a reasonable expectation of this being so. The fact that his written English tended to the impenetrable didn't help here either.
Very possibly true. I believe he was last heard of in the USA supporting Donald Trump about whom, strangely, similar things have been said.

Edit: I've since been told that he was running as a Democrat so I unreservedly withdraw this remark.
He described himself as a lifelong Republican last year https://floridapolitics.com/archives/36 ... att-gaetz/
He did indeed, but he switched to democrat because of his particular antipathy to Donald Trump. Did him no good when his constituency association (or whatever Americans term it) discovered details of his time in the ECF :-(

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