Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:05 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:53 pm
Weights of votes are decided according to formulae which are published, and the size of the 4NCL vote has, I should think (though I have never been a member of council) been comparably large for several years before Mike became CEO.
The voting registers for current and past meetings are shown on the ECF site. As Malcolm observes, the 4NCL count has increased by about 50%. One oddity is that the series of 4NCL Congresses aren't explicitly recorded as having voting rights. So are they consolidated with the 4NCL league total or missed completely?

In some ways it's unsatisfactory from an accountability viewpoint for Congresses to have votes at all given that there's no obvious formal mechanism for deciding what the vote should be outside of the organising group.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:48 pm

The three members are myself and two other captains (not sure whether I should name them, since, unlike the management board, we are not listed on the 4NCL site. But you have competed against their teams a number of times, without complaint as far as I know). My point was simply that we were asked - it was not a stitch up between Claire and Mike nor among the board.

Indeed, it has always been open to us to say to Mike "isn't 4NCL occupying enough of your time?" But presumably his present opponents will not object on this score either, because as John Foley has posted on this forum, when you want a job done, you ask a busy man to do it.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:52 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:05 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:53 pm
Weights of votes are decided according to formulae which are published, and the size of the 4NCL vote has, I should think (though I have never been a member of council) been comparably large for several years before Mike became CEO.
The voting registers for current and past meetings are shown on the ECF site. As Malcolm observes, the 4NCL count has increased by about 50%. One oddity is that the series of 4NCL Congresses aren't explicitly recorded as having voting rights. So are they consolidated with the 4NCL league total or missed completely?

In some ways it's unsatisfactory from an accountability viewpoint for Congresses to have votes at all given that there's no obvious formal mechanism for deciding what the vote should be outside of the organising group.
Well I am sure that there are ECF officials who can explain the vote allocation according to the formulae, but maybe it is as simple as you say - the number of teams in 4NCL is forever expanding and now includes Congresses and Junior 4NCL, and so some increase in voting weight seems explicable.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Post by Roger de Coverly » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:06 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:52 pm
Well I am sure that there are ECF officials who can explain the vote allocation according to the formulae, but maybe it is as simple as you say - the number of teams in 4NCL is forever expanding and now includes Congresses and Junior 4NCL, and so some increase in voting weight seems explicable.
At some time over the last eighteen months was there not a proposal voted through to change the attribution of votes to include online chess? The online 4NCL league competitions could be the reason why the 4NCL total has shot up.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Post by LawrenceCooper » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:33 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:48 pm
The three members are myself and two other captains (not sure whether I should name them, since, unlike the management board, we are not listed on the 4NCL site. But you have competed against their teams a number of times, without complaint as far as I know). My point was simply that we were asked - it was not a stitch up between Claire and Mike nor among the board.
Any chance of mere mortal captains being consulted on this?

Mick Norris
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Re: Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Post by Mick Norris » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:41 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:06 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:52 pm
Well I am sure that there are ECF officials who can explain the vote allocation according to the formulae, but maybe it is as simple as you say - the number of teams in 4NCL is forever expanding and now includes Congresses and Junior 4NCL, and so some increase in voting weight seems explicable.
At some time over the last eighteen months was there not a proposal voted through to change the attribution of votes to include online chess? The online 4NCL league competitions could be the reason why the 4NCL total has shot up.
Yes there was

We have a Voting Register office, Michael Farthing, who can be trusted to get the allocations correct; I'd say an ECF Director suggesting otherwise ought to be breaking the Code of Conduct (I've not checked) and might be subject to a complaint?
Any postings on here represent my personal views

Paul Cooksey
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Re: Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Post by Paul Cooksey » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:44 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:06 pm
At some time over the last eighteen months was there not a proposal voted through to change the attribution of votes to include online chess? The online 4NCL league competitions could be the reason why the 4NCL total has shot up.
There was a brief period of me complaining about it on this forum. It was the rationale Council votes are a reward for organisers that I objected to more than the redistribution of votes itself. But I was surprised and I imagine Malcolm shocked.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:10 pm

LawrenceCooper wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:33 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:48 pm
The three members are myself and two other captains (not sure whether I should name them, since, unlike the management board, we are not listed on the 4NCL site. But you have competed against their teams a number of times, without complaint as far as I know). My point was simply that we were asked - it was not a stitch up between Claire and Mike nor among the board.
Any chance of mere mortal captains being consulted on this?
One answer: members are not asked to call for captains' votes on anything, no (though nothing stops us either). We are asked to give views on the basis of experience and perceived ability, and knowing a bit more about how the 4NCL is run in practice. Some issues do not lend themselves to mass votes, not least because they have consequences that the masses do not have to implement. I daresay that the hotel allocation system introduced a few years ago would have been objected to by captains, but that is because they would have wanted someone else to do the impossible job of chasing the commission under the old system.

Another answer: You mean - you have never asked me to consult 4NCL captains on any matter since I became a member in 2004, not even when you were running for ECF elections, but since Malcolm is running a campaign, I should have started now?

Angus French
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Re: Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Post by Angus French » Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:22 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:10 pm
LawrenceCooper wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:33 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:48 pm
The three members are myself and two other captains (not sure whether I should name them, since, unlike the management board, we are not listed on the 4NCL site. But you have competed against their teams a number of times, without complaint as far as I know). My point was simply that we were asked - it was not a stitch up between Claire and Mike nor among the board.
Any chance of mere mortal captains being consulted on this?
One answer: members are not asked to call for captains' votes on anything, no (though nothing stops us either). We are asked to give views on the basis of experience and perceived ability, and knowing a bit more about how the 4NCL is run in practice. Some issues do not lend themselves to mass votes, not least because they have consequences that the masses do not have to implement. I daresay that the hotel allocation system introduced a few years ago would have been objected to by captains, but that is because they would have wanted someone else to do the impossible job of chasing the commission under the old system.

Another answer: You mean - you have never asked me to consult 4NCL captains on any matter since I became a member in 2004, not even when you were running for ECF elections, but since Malcolm is running a campaign, I should have started now?
Jonathan, am I understanding this right: there's a panel of three people deciding how the 4NCL's 20 votes should be cast at the upcoming ECF AGM - and team captains aren't consulted?

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Michael Farthing
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Re: Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Post by Michael Farthing » Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:29 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:41 pm
Roger de Coverly wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:06 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:52 pm
Well I am sure that there are ECF officials who can explain the vote allocation according to the formulae, but maybe it is as simple as you say - the number of teams in 4NCL is forever expanding and now includes Congresses and Junior 4NCL, and so some increase in voting weight seems explicable.
At some time over the last eighteen months was there not a proposal voted through to change the attribution of votes to include online chess? The online 4NCL league competitions could be the reason why the 4NCL total has shot up.
Yes there was

We have a Voting Register office, Michael Farthing, who can be trusted to get the allocations correct; I'd say an ECF Director suggesting otherwise ought to be breaking the Code of Conduct (I've not checked) and might be subject to a complaint?
Mick, I don't do complaints.

I have spoken to Malcolm earlier this evening. I made my views clear. He told me that he was not making allegations against me and did not know I was solely responsible for the register. I made the comment that anyway he should have sought an explanation before twittering. He did say that he would make it clear on his twitter account that he was not accusing me. I gave him an explanation of the figures. (Incidentally, this thread seems to have found that explanation). We parted on good terms. That is how things are supposed to work.

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Post by LawrenceCooper » Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:38 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:10 pm
LawrenceCooper wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:33 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:48 pm
The three members are myself and two other captains (not sure whether I should name them, since, unlike the management board, we are not listed on the 4NCL site. But you have competed against their teams a number of times, without complaint as far as I know). My point was simply that we were asked - it was not a stitch up between Claire and Mike nor among the board.
Any chance of mere mortal captains being consulted on this?
One answer: members are not asked to call for captains' votes on anything, no (though nothing stops us either). We are asked to give views on the basis of experience and perceived ability, and knowing a bit more about how the 4NCL is run in practice. Some issues do not lend themselves to mass votes, not least because they have consequences that the masses do not have to implement. I daresay that the hotel allocation system introduced a few years ago would have been objected to by captains, but that is because they would have wanted someone else to do the impossible job of chasing the commission under the old system.

Another answer: You mean - you have never asked me to consult 4NCL captains on any matter since I became a member in 2004, not even when you were running for ECF elections, but since Malcolm is running a campaign, I should have started now?
Thank you for your answer. I wasn't even aware that you were part of the 4NCL set-up so that may explain my lack of questions for you.

It is no secret why I have had less involvement in chess in the last seven years (we have discussed it on several occasions) and why that has changed in recent months. For you to try and link that to an ECF election is hopefully ignorance of my circumstances rather than anything else.

Andrew Zigmond
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Re: Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Post by Andrew Zigmond » Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:55 pm

Mick Norris wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:41 pm


We have a Voting Register office, Michael Farthing, who can be trusted to get the allocations correct; I'd say an ECF Director suggesting otherwise ought to be breaking the Code of Conduct (I've not checked) and might be subject to a complaint?
Michael may not wish to complain on this occasion but the constant drip feed of accusations against Mike Truran (this supposed revelation about his views on clubs and leagues for example) must be coming close.

And for those on their high horse about the consultation in the 4NCL; presumably I can now be confident that the Direct Membership Representatives will only cast their votes in accordance with the majority of their members and that the figures will be published and be verifiable.
Controller - Yorkshire League
Chairman - Harrogate Chess Club
All views expressed entirely my own

LawrenceCooper
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Re: Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Post by LawrenceCooper » Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:08 pm

Andrew Zigmond wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:55 pm
Mick Norris wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:41 pm


We have a Voting Register office, Michael Farthing, who can be trusted to get the allocations correct; I'd say an ECF Director suggesting otherwise ought to be breaking the Code of Conduct (I've not checked) and might be subject to a complaint?
Michael may not wish to complain on this occasion but the constant drip feed of accusations against Mike Truran (this supposed revelation about his views on clubs and leagues for example) must be coming close.

And for those on their high horse about the consultation in the 4NCL; presumably I can now be confident that the Direct Membership Representatives will only cast their votes in accordance with the majority of their members and that the figures will be published and be verifiable.
I would hope that would be the case yes. As I was only an ECF "supporter" last year I don't have any reason to expect consultation from the people you mention but as a captain of 3 teams in the 4NCL I felt it not unreasonable to ask the question once I noticed it get a mention in this thread. I am certainly grateful that Jonathan has responded especially as his identity is not revealed on the 4NCL site as a board member or officer so I wasn't aware of his sub-committee and have tended to direct questions the way of Alex and Mike.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:09 pm

Angus French wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:22 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:10 pm
LawrenceCooper wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:33 pm


Any chance of mere mortal captains being consulted on this?
One answer: members are not asked to call for captains' votes on anything, no (though nothing stops us either). We are asked to give views on the basis of experience and perceived ability, and knowing a bit more about how the 4NCL is run in practice. Some issues do not lend themselves to mass votes, not least because they have consequences that the masses do not have to implement. I daresay that the hotel allocation system introduced a few years ago would have been objected to by captains, but that is because they would have wanted someone else to do the impossible job of chasing the commission under the old system.

Another answer: You mean - you have never asked me to consult 4NCL captains on any matter since I became a member in 2004, not even when you were running for ECF elections, but since Malcolm is running a campaign, I should have started now?
Jonathan, am I understanding this right: there's a panel of three people deciding how the 4NCL's 20 votes should be cast at the upcoming ECF AGM - and team captains aren't consulted?
Not at all. You have quite misunderstood. The members only express views. Decisions are made by board members. I only mentioned our limited involvement to show that nothing is taken for granted and that opportunities for dissenting views are presented.

Angus French
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Re: Putting the Record Straight: Answering John Reyes and Mike Truran

Post by Angus French » Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:13 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 9:09 pm
Angus French wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:22 pm
Jonathan Rogers wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:10 pm


One answer: members are not asked to call for captains' votes on anything, no (though nothing stops us either). We are asked to give views on the basis of experience and perceived ability, and knowing a bit more about how the 4NCL is run in practice. Some issues do not lend themselves to mass votes, not least because they have consequences that the masses do not have to implement. I daresay that the hotel allocation system introduced a few years ago would have been objected to by captains, but that is because they would have wanted someone else to do the impossible job of chasing the commission under the old system.

Another answer: You mean - you have never asked me to consult 4NCL captains on any matter since I became a member in 2004, not even when you were running for ECF elections, but since Malcolm is running a campaign, I should have started now?
Jonathan, am I understanding this right: there's a panel of three people deciding how the 4NCL's 20 votes should be cast at the upcoming ECF AGM - and team captains aren't consulted?
Not at all. You have quite misunderstood. The members only express views. Decisions are made by board members. I only mentioned our limited involvement to show that nothing is taken for granted and that opportunities for dissenting views are presented.
Good! Thanks for correcting and I'm glad that's case. So team captains have or will be consulted about the ECF AGM - sorry but I'm still not clear?

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