Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
NickFaulks
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by NickFaulks » Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:22 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:44 pm
Dvorkovich could state clearly and unequivocally that no such action should even be contemplated until after Russia has withdrawn from occupied Ukrainian territory.
Do you include Crimea?
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Gerard Killoran
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Gerard Killoran » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:29 pm

Chris Goodall wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:33 pm
Gerard Killoran wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:57 pm
it's much better than vague memories of fifty year old documentaries.
You really do have a bee in your bonnet about this. What is so offensive about the idea that sometimes the people want left-leaning governments in charge, and sometimes right-leaning governments, and that those are their genuine and freely expressed wishes? "Oh, but the people's true preference is always for Labour" fails the falsifiability test, because any time they don't elect Labour you can just blame the media or FPTP or The System in general. It's a position that is corrosive to democracy.
I have no idea what you are talking about, and I suspect, neither do you.

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Chris Goodall
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Chris Goodall » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:45 pm

J T Melsom wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:41 pm
What is the broad attitude of FIDE on the 'separation of sport and state bodies'?
The Short decision para 45.5 would seem to braid Short up for not consulting the state bodies:

45.5. If deemed necessary, the FIDE representative should consult representatives of the local Olympic Committee and the sports authorities of the National Government.
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Roger Lancaster
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Roger Lancaster » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:48 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:22 pm
David Sedgwick wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:44 pm
Dvorkovich could state clearly and unequivocally that no such action should even be contemplated until after Russia has withdrawn from occupied Ukrainian territory.
Do you include Crimea?
Let's face it, whatever action Dvorkovich took would be criticised by some so it was sensible of him to refer this to a working group, although I imagine that the Russian Chess Federation won't be ecstatic that the working group is headed by a Ukrainian.

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:11 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:22 pm
David Sedgwick wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:44 pm
Dvorkovich could state clearly and unequivocally that no such action should even be contemplated until after Russia has withdrawn from occupied Ukrainian territory.
Do you include Crimea?
I was deliberately imprecise. There have been suggestions that Zelensky might accept a return to the position as at 24th February, at least initially.

It would certainly be a major step forward if Dvorkovich were to call for Putin to withdraw Russian forces from all Ukrainian territory occupied since that date.

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:16 am

Roger Lancaster wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:48 pm
,,, though I imagine that the Russian Chess Federation won't be ecstatic that the working group is headed by a Ukrainian.
It's not. It's headed by an American citizen who was born in the Soviet Union, in what is now Ukraine.

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Chris Goodall
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Chris Goodall » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:38 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:11 am
NickFaulks wrote:
Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:22 pm
David Sedgwick wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:44 pm
Dvorkovich could state clearly and unequivocally that no such action should even be contemplated until after Russia has withdrawn from occupied Ukrainian territory.
Do you include Crimea?
I was deliberately imprecise. There have been suggestions that Zelensky might accept a return to the position as at 24th February, at least initially.

It would certainly be a major step forward if Dvorkovich were to call for Putin to withdraw Russian forces from all Ukrainian territory occupied since that date.
Although it seems a rational approach, I think that would be an automatic prison sentence for Dvorkovich. Plus Putin doesn't believe that his troops in Donbas are on Ukrainian territory.

I can't see Crimea not being grandfathered into the territory of the Russian CA, since Russia has already been a member while occupying Crimea. It would invite petitions to FIDE from Jammu and Kashmir, the Kurils, Hala'ib, East Jerusalem and Korea.
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by David Sedgwick » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:06 am

Chris Goodall wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:38 am
Although it seems a rational approach, I think that would be an automatic prison sentence for Dvorkovich.
I appreciate that Dvorkovich is in a very difficult position. I don't accept that that justifies him saying different things to different people.

I stand by my comment that the election result is a disaster for FIDE. I cannot believe that it is in the best interests of FIDE to have Dvorkovich in charge for the next four years.

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Ian Thompson » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:00 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:06 am
I stand by my comment that the election result is a disaster for FIDE. I cannot believe that it is in the best interests of FIDE to have Dvorkovich in charge for the next four years.
I agree that having a Russian, who was formerly a close associate of Putin, in charge will create problems for FIDE. What was the better, possible, outcome when the only other candidate reportedly didn't want the job and wasn't capable of doing it either?

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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by JustinHorton » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:36 am

David Sedgwick wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:06 am
I stand by my comment that the election result is a disaster for FIDE.
A disaster of what nature, though?
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NickFaulks
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:25 pm

Ian Thompson wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:00 am
I agree that having a Russian, who was formerly a close associate of Putin, in charge will create problems for FIDE. What was the better, possible, outcome when the only other candidate reportedly didn't want the job and wasn't capable of doing it either?
That was the question to which the delegates gave their overwhelming response.
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by NickFaulks » Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:30 pm

I repeat, what happened to the credible candidates? I'm asking because I don't know.

I have spent much of the past two weeks with Stuart Fancy, who is good company. He doesn't understand what has just happened either.
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Chris Goodall » Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:50 pm

NickFaulks wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:30 pm
I repeat, what happened to the credible candidates? I'm asking because I don't know.

I have spent much of the past two weeks with Stuart Fancy, who is good company. He doesn't understand what has just happened either.
They didn't get nominations from all four continents. An intentionally difficult bar to clear, because it means you need both a large enough pork barrel to appeal to the federations with 6 FIDE-rated players, and enough integrity and competence to appeal to rich Europeans.

I suspect there was also a realisation that, despite the "secret" nature of the ballot, the anti-Dvorkovich vote was likely to be meager enough that individual voters risked being identified by a process of elimination, and excluded from the pork barrel.

Really, we are the odd ones for imagining that this time, the election will be a meaningful contest. Previous election winners running for re-election have a 100% record.
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by NickFaulks » Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:42 am

Chris Goodall wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:50 pm
An intentionally difficult bar to clear
What? ONE nomination out of a disparate group of 50+ federations. What would a low bar look like?
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Chris Goodall
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Re: Tim Wall's Ukraine Resolutions

Post by Chris Goodall » Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:58 am

NickFaulks wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 8:42 am
Chris Goodall wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:50 pm
An intentionally difficult bar to clear
What? ONE nomination out of a disparate group of 50+ federations. What would a low bar look like?
Yes, one nomination from a country that doesn't mind a) being identified as anti-Dvorkovich and b) splitting the anti-Dvorkovich vote.
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