The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
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Which funding option would you vote for?

Option 1 - Membership Only (£18/season)
41
72%
Option 2.1 - Membership & Game Fee (very simplified, 60p/game)
5
9%
Option 2.2 - Membership & Game Fee (moderately simplified, 70p/game)
8
14%
Option 2.3 - Membership & Game Fee (hardly simplified, 70p/game)
3
5%
 
Total votes: 57

Alan Burke

Re: The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Post by Alan Burke » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:02 pm

I assume that as only 15 places are still available at the Gatwick event, there is a limit to the number of entrants - and those will no doubt be filled before the competition begins.

If hard copies had been available, the 15 places would probably have already been taken, but it is all a matter of expenditure versus income and whether it would be viable to produce leaflets for those few additonal entries ?

For many other tournaments without an entry limit, I would have thought the more ways to publicise the event, the better - including both the internet AND leaflets.

With regard to the point about people not taking the trouble to post a letter to enter a tournament, surely the solution is for leaflets to be issued WITH an e-mail contact address, so entrants still learn about the event via the hard copies, but can then enter online. The one downside of online entries is when players submit such an entry (with a promise to pay their entry fee on arrival) and then do not turn up. Unless due to an emergency, such players should then be immediately banned from future events.

Sean Hewitt

Re: The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Post by Sean Hewitt » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:14 pm

Alan Burke wrote:I assume that as only 15 places are still available at the Gatwick event, there is a limit to the number of entrants - and those will no doubt be filled before the competition begins.

If hard copies had been available, the 15 places would probably have already been taken, but it is all a matter of expenditure versus income and whether it would be viable to produce leaflets for those few additonal entries ?

For many other tournaments without an entry limit, I would have thought the more ways to publicise the event, the better - including both the internet AND leaflets.

With regard to the point about people not taking the trouble to post a letter to enter a tournament, surely the solution is for leaflets to be issued WITH an e-mail contact address, so entrants still learn about the event via the hard copies, but can then enter online. The one downside of online entries is when players submit such an entry (with a promise to pay their entry fee on arrival) and then do not turn up. Unless due to an emergency, such players should then be immediately banned from future events.
Unless you have a venue with infinite space, every event will have a limit on the number of entrants that it can accommodate. Interestingly, since we stopped printing entry forms (at the start of 2011) every event has been larger in numbers that any event we had ever run before!

If you take online entries, you should also take online payments in my opinion. With e2e4 if you don't pay when you enter online, then you haven't entered at all.

We do ban are those that withdraw without telling you. It's very unfair on the player waiting for someone who has not intention on turning up. In fact one such player entered Gatwick yesterday and was most put out when we refunded his entry fee and said we didn't want his entry!

Alan Burke

Re: The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Post by Alan Burke » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:33 pm

The online-payment feature is the bit which could deter some people, as many might not have/want such a facility in order to deal with their finances.

If certain organisers are quite happy with limiting their entrants to those who do so online, that's fine, but I would hope that not every event follows that trend as there must be many who still prefer the 'pen and paper' method; either by choice or because they haven't got access to a computer.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:45 pm

Alan Burke wrote:The online-payment feature is the bit which could deter some people, as many might not have/want such a facility in order to deal with their finances.
On the other hand, it may facilitate entries from visitors to Britain. e2e4 usually have a few players you don't immediately recognise as resident here. Using the international banking system to transfer money between countries is neither easy nor cheap. ( For UK to Continental Europe, you have to go to a bank, fill out a long form, cost is about 30% of a typical Congress entry fee)

Mark Howitt
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Re: The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Post by Mark Howitt » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:17 pm

As an outsider, I'm not going to spend much time commenting on this.

But if you seriously think someone with a passing interest in chess is going to pay £18 a season to be a member of an institute when he'll still have to pay club fees.... you're deluded. Can't see it being too popular in Yorkshire!

Alan Burke

Re: The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Post by Alan Burke » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:32 pm

Roger, I am not against providing the opportunity for those who wish to pay via their computer; I just think that the usual cash/cheque system should also be available so as to not prevent those who do not trust/have the online facility from entering.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:44 pm

Frankly, why should Sean bother to advertise non-online entry/payment? His events are nearly always full - getting more entries than the vast majority of congresses - and he does it using online payment without printed entry forms, which makes his life easier administratively.

Chris J Greatorix
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Re: The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Post by Chris J Greatorix » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:55 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:Frankly, why should Sean bother to advertise non-online entry/payment? His events are nearly always full - getting more entries than the vast majority of congresses - and he does it using online payment without printed entry forms, which makes his life easier administratively.
To give every member of society, young and old, an equal opportunity to enter. Yes a tournament may be popular but it;s important not to disciminate against those who a not au fait with technology. Analogous example: Oxford is a popular university, but you wouldn't limit it's entry to one sector of society.

Alan Burke

Re: The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Post by Alan Burke » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:02 pm

Alex .. I never complained about the way certain organisers wish to run their tournaments; I was just making a point that not everyone has access or wishes to pay by online methods. If it is financially better for privately-run events not to produce entry forms then that's fine, but certain players could be disadvantaged if every tournament followed suit.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:08 pm

Chris J Greatorix wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:Frankly, why should Sean bother to advertise non-online entry/payment? His events are nearly always full - getting more entries than the vast majority of congresses - and he does it using online payment without printed entry forms, which makes his life easier administratively.
To give every member of society, young and old, an equal opportunity to enter. Yes a tournament may be popular but it;s important not to disciminate against those who a not au fait with technology. Analogous example: Oxford is a popular university, but you wouldn't limit it's entry to one sector of society.
The ability to set up Paypal and fill in a form on a website isn't an age-restricted process.

Chris J Greatorix
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Re: The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Post by Chris J Greatorix » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:19 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:
Chris J Greatorix wrote:
Alex Holowczak wrote:Frankly, why should Sean bother to advertise non-online entry/payment? His events are nearly always full - getting more entries than the vast majority of congresses - and he does it using online payment without printed entry forms, which makes his life easier administratively.
To give every member of society, young and old, an equal opportunity to enter. Yes a tournament may be popular but it;s important not to disciminate against those who a not au fait with technology. Analogous example: Oxford is a popular university, but you wouldn't limit it's entry to one sector of society.
The ability to set up Paypal and fill in a form on a website isn't an age-restricted process.
No, but your missing the point somewhat. People who cannot enter online, for whatever reason (maybe they have a disability, maybe they don't have a laptop, maybe they simply don't trust the online system) will be disadvantaged if traditional paper forms of entering are excluded and full reliance on an online entry system was implemented.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:29 pm

Chris J Greatorix wrote:No, but your missing the point somewhat. People who cannot enter online, for whatever reason (maybe they have a disability, maybe they don't have a laptop, maybe they simply don't trust the online system) will be disadvantaged if traditional paper forms of entering are excluded and full reliance on an online entry system was implemented.
Oh well. I guess they'd just have to miss out. Meanwhile, tournaments like this will continue to flourish.

I organise a lot of teams via Facebook/e-mail. If players are difficult for me to get in touch with, they play fewer games for me than those who are easy to get in touch with. As far as I'm concerned, that's the way of the world.

In any case, Sean accepts entries the traditional way. You can download the forms online, and post as you do now.

Brendan O'Gorman
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Re: The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Post by Brendan O'Gorman » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:30 pm

To be fair to Sean, he has facilitated a postal entry to gatwick from at least one player that I know of.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Post by Alex Holowczak » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:31 pm

Brendan O'Gorman wrote:To be fair to Sean, he has facilitated a postal entry to gatwick from at least one player that I know of.
Sean accepts postal entries. In fact, he doesn't have to pay Paypal their commission, so he makes ~ £1 extra from postal entries than online entries. For the amount of extra work he has to do, that sounds about right to me.

Paul Cooksey

Re: The Funding of the English Chess Federation vote

Post by Paul Cooksey » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:32 pm

Chris J Greatorix wrote:To give every member of society, young and old, an equal opportunity to enter. Yes a tournament may be popular but it;s important not to disciminate against those who a not au fait with technology. Analogous example: Oxford is a popular university, but you wouldn't limit it's entry to one sector of society.
I really don't see any analogy between university admissions and a commercially run tournament. We might as well say Sean is discriminating against the people of China, by refusing to print entry forms in Mandarin.

If there is a demand for paper entry, it is sure to continue. My belief is that chess players are more than averagely technophiles, so there may not be.

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