ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
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Adam Raoof
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Re: ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Post by Adam Raoof » Tue May 24, 2011 11:41 am

Scott Freeman wrote:I like the idea of a Blitz grading list, but can see one or two issues such as the ECF membership obligation.
It was a joke. Moving on....
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Re: ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue May 24, 2011 11:42 am

Scott Freeman wrote: but would I be allowed to include events such as our Exchange Chess pairs event this coming Bank Holiday Monday? :lol:
There are far too many variants. Your version doesn't allow pieces to go on either in check or mate. You don't even have stalling to 10, before taking a piece of the lowest value off the board. Or death count to 10 when there's a mate-in-one threat on the board. Where's the fun in that? :(

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Re: ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Post by Scott Freeman » Tue May 24, 2011 11:57 am

Clearly we need Exchange Chess grades as well - and different grades for different versions......!

David Sedgwick
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Re: ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Post by David Sedgwick » Tue May 24, 2011 12:42 pm

Adam Raoof wrote:David, you took me far too seriously.
Adam Raoof wrote:
Scott Freeman wrote:I like the idea of a Blitz grading list, but can see one or two issues such as the ECF membership obligation.
It was a joke. Moving on....
In that case, please would you give some serious answers to some genuine questions.

Do you, or do you not, think it would be desirable for there to be official ECF grading lists for Blitz chess, as there are for Rapidplay chess and Standard Play chess?

If you do, then:

a) would there be any eligibility requirements for inclusion, whether related to ECF membership or otherwise?
b) how and with what frequency would you like to see the lists produced?
c) do you believe the ECF currently has the capability and resources to implement your answer to b)?
d) when would you expect to submit proposals to the ECF Board and/or the ECF Council for approval?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Post by Roger de Coverly » Tue May 24, 2011 1:03 pm

David Sedgwick wrote: Do you, or do you not, think it would be desirable for there to be official ECF grading lists for Blitz chess, as there are for Rapidplay chess and Standard Play chess?
I had the idea that he was suggesting an unofficial list with the comment that Tournament Director would do a lot of the legwork in results collection. That of itself is an interesting suggestion should any organisation be contemplating the feasability of private rating lists.

Tryfon Gavriel
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Re: ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Post by Tryfon Gavriel » Tue May 24, 2011 1:27 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote: Do you, or do you not, think it would be desirable for there to be official ECF grading lists for Blitz chess, as there are for Rapidplay chess and Standard Play chess?
I had the idea that he was suggesting an unofficial list with the comment that Tournament Director would do a lot of the legwork in results collection. That of itself is an interesting suggestion should any organisation be contemplating the feasability of private rating lists.
Wow, I am not sure if Adam was joking, as I'm a bit busy at the moment doing videos and stuff. But I do feel blitz chess would be a useful thing for say players on ICC, Playchess.com and elsewhere to be able to list in their online player profile - as it would have a more direct and relevant bearing on where a lot of chess activity is currently occuring - i.e. online servers, and often 1, 3 and 5 minute chess in particular. 1 minute is "bullet" and not blitz though.

But If I understand you and Adam correctly, you are suggesting a sort of analogy with say chessgames.com where although chessgames.com sort out the main game collection - it lets uses create "collections" of games which add more interest to the database of games. So by analogy you are indicating that chess organisations - e.g. major chess shops, clubs, associations, etc could actually create their own "Rating collection" lists - which would just need an official seal of approval. So there could in fact be "Rating collections" being kept by different organisations which can span a spectrum of interests, not just blitz chess - e.g. variant chess.

If so, that would sound to me like the common wave in IT strategy about centralisation vs. decentralisation - both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages. Decentralising sub-rating lists would need official approval. But if London for example is the main activity for 5 minute tournaments - maybe such a decentralised approach for blitz chess ratngs would be viable - and avoid any pressure and distraction on ECF for the more important rating lists which need perfecting and need to have most resources allocated to them.

I guess my idea stemmed from the fact that we do end up adopting things like FIDE regulations even in club leagues - like the mobile phone rule - and I hope we don't just receive "pain" when modelling FIDE stuff, but also the "fun" stuff too :)
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Phil Makepeace
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Re: ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Post by Phil Makepeace » Tue May 24, 2011 1:37 pm

Tryf, did you hear me talking about this after the Muswell Hill Blitz the other week? If not, I'm pleased we're on the same wavelength with this. I was going to suggest the exact same thing on here once my summer had begun.

The reason it crossed my mind in the first place was that I simply don't play rapidplay. And the 100+* competitive blitz matches I play per year don't get recognised. Not that they necessarily should officially, but, you know, it seems like something should happen.

Oh, and I'd be quite happy to contribute to the inputting, calculation and general publication of the data. For free.

*6 or 7 Hendon Blitz tournaments (36-42)
& Drunken Knights Beer & Blitz (24)
& Sam Black Blitz (12)
& Muswell Hill Winter Blitz (16)
& Muswell Hill Summer Blitz (11)

Tryfon Gavriel
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Re: ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Post by Tryfon Gavriel » Tue May 24, 2011 2:01 pm

Phil Makepeace wrote:Tryf, did you hear me talking about this after the Muswell Hill Blitz the other week? If not, I'm pleased we're on the same wavelength with this. I was going to suggest the exact same thing on here once my summer had begun.

The reason it crossed my mind in the first place was that I simply don't play rapidplay. And the 100+* competitive blitz matches I play per year don't get recognised. Not that they necessarily should officially, but, you know, it seems like something should happen.

Oh, and I'd be quite happy to contribute to the inputting, calculation and general publication of the data. For free.

*6 or 7 Hendon Blitz tournaments (36-42)
& Drunken Knights Beer & Blitz (24)
& Sam Black Blitz (12)
& Muswell Hill Winter Blitz (16)
& Muswell Hill Summer Blitz (11)
Hi Phil

Great to see you here - and congrats again on beating me in the final for the Muswell Hill 5 minute tournament! I will crush you next year maybe :)

I don't remember you talking about it - maybe it slipped into my subconscious?!. The main reason I am consciously aware that I brought it up is all the current boring draws being held in the FIDE world championship qualifier which seek to put priority in the rapid and blitz as tie-breaking mechanisms to find a suitable challenge for Anand.
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Re: ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Post by Alex Holowczak » Tue May 24, 2011 2:17 pm

Here's a bright idea - which may or may not be viable - how about 5-minute games played on ChessCube between ECF Members (which I believe the ECF has/had some involvement with?) can be submitted for grading onto the blitz list?

Ljubica Lazarevic
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Re: ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Post by Ljubica Lazarevic » Tue May 24, 2011 2:26 pm

I would be happy to try and put together a database-based/web front end blitz grading system. If people are happy with this, I can set one up that uses the same grading system as ECF grades. I would need some volunteer result inputters though... Let me know what you think.

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Re: ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Post by Adam Raoof » Tue May 24, 2011 2:59 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:In that case, please would you give some serious answers to some genuine questions.

Do you, or do you not, think it would be desirable for there to be official ECF grading lists for Blitz chess, as there are for Rapidplay chess and Standard Play chess?
Not a priority, but I think this is something that there is a desire for, and I believe we can find the manpower to produce something regularly, under the auspices of the ECF.
David Sedgwick wrote:If you do, then:

a) would there be any eligibility requirements for inclusion, whether related to ECF membership or otherwise?
Yes, I think tournaments should conform to some kind of standard. I don't think ECF membership is necessary, but it could be that all the participating events pay a registration fee to the ECF and a Blitz Grand Prix could be organised for the overall benefit of the tournaments and the players.
David Sedgwick wrote:b) how and with what frequency would you like to see the lists produced?
As often as possible - this is blitz chess, after all! However it depends on volunteers, and the number of events we could include.
David Sedgwick wrote:c) do you believe the ECF currently has the capability and resources to implement your answer to b)?
Define 'the ECF'! Yes, but don't ask the current grading team, they are volunteers with other priorities, I am sure. However anyone can come forward and volunteer to take part.
David Sedgwick wrote:d) when would you expect to submit proposals to the ECF Board and/or the ECF Council for approval?
It woudn't need the involvement of the Council, or possibly even the Board but I am happy to be corrected. If anything tangible comes of this discussion I will raise it as soon as we have a Board meeting for approval. My experience tells me that unless individuals with knowledge of grading and a passion for Blitz chess come together and organise a set of standards (doesn't have to be lengthy) and a system for approving / including events in a grading list, nothing will happen.

We need to establish a list of events that will participate, then publicise those events to all who are interested. I would not, at this stage, include any online events in any grading list.
Last edited by Adam Raoof on Tue May 24, 2011 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tryfon Gavriel
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Re: ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Post by Tryfon Gavriel » Tue May 24, 2011 3:00 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote:Here's a bright idea - which may or may not be viable - how about 5-minute games played on ChessCube between ECF Members (which I believe the ECF has/had some involvement with?) can be submitted for grading onto the blitz list?
One issue which is raised with any online chess is the potential for cheating and engine abuse. Is it possible to accept online bullet or two minute chess as "blitz" because it can fight against this issue quite naturally?! Also since the introduction of "premoves" it is far more possible to take games to completion as well. Furthermore having to use premoves would help rule out engine abusers, because that comes out in the Server Audit - whether premoves were used or not - which is an evidence indicator against engine abusers, who wouldn't be able to make use of them if they are simply relaying moves from an engine.

I think it might help popularise the ECF blitz rating system and ECF generally if online servers could have ECF approved online bullet/ two minute games. But for offline (OTB) it would be 5 minute chess - where engine abuse isn't an issue. No need for anything quicker.

The daily Chesscube "Warzone" (at 1.15 am) which actually is for virtual money currency (Chesscube "Crowns") that can be swapped later for real world currency is based on two minute chess. If this is acceptable to Chesscube to be paying out real money based on it, then maybe it is credible enough for submission for official ECF blitz ratings.
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Phil Makepeace
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Re: ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Post by Phil Makepeace » Tue May 24, 2011 3:45 pm

No no no no no.

If we're going to do this at all, we should do it properly. Only over the board encounters should count from pre-registered events. Allowing online games will be an enormous undertaking for the graders. If I volunteer my time towards this, I'd want to know when the work was going to come in.

By the way, I think monthly lists are realistic.

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Re: ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Post by Ljubica Lazarevic » Tue May 24, 2011 3:47 pm

Only over the board blitz games to be graded (IMO)

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Re: ECF Blitz rating possibility ?!

Post by Adam Raoof » Tue May 24, 2011 3:50 pm

Phil Makepeace wrote:No no no no no.

If we're going to do this at all, we should do it properly. Only over the board encounters should count from pre-registered events. Allowing online games will be an enormous undertaking for the graders. If I volunteer my time towards this, I'd want to know when the work was going to come in.

By the way, I think monthly lists are realistic.
Can I echo your comments?

'No, no no no no'

;-)
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