ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Roger de Coverly
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:23 pm

The AGM is a council structure much like the ECF.
2.1.2 Composition
L’Assemblée Générale de la Fédération est composée des délégués des associations,
which Google translates much as you might think into
The Assembly General of the Federation is composed delegates from the associations
They seem to have steering committees for various things. That seems to have tripped them up on the Feller case, the appeal seems to be on the basis that the wrong body applied the sanctions.

Paul Cooksey

Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:52 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:I have heard French players comment that outside of the week-long tournaments which are usually in holiday periods and the regional league weekends, there's nothing going on.
I have heard French 4NCL team mates complain of the relative lack of tournaments. I also recall one telling me they did not have anything similar to our league chess. But he wasn't particularly impressed, saying the traditional FIDE rated game on a Friday, late into the night, suited him better.

I suspect the many clubs with 100+ members, open 5 or 6 nights a week, are doing something chess related. Perhaps they are participating in a blitz competition. The FFE has introduced a new monthly rating list for it this year, apparently. It's not intended to be serious, but rather to give all the members a bit of fun.

We are discussing bi-annual grades in another thread. Mon Dieu!

harrylamb
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by harrylamb » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:18 pm

In answer to some of the points raised in the discussions between David Robertson and Roger.

There are two types of License
License A (sportive) For long play events
License B (Loisir) for rapidplay and social membership

During the last season the FFE issued 54,555 licenses of which 25795 were A licenses. There were 906 clubs. You can see a breakdown of License A fees according to province at

http://www.echecs.asso.fr/Actus/2822/LicA.pdf
In this breakdown H0-6 are boys of various age groups and H8 are male veterans. D numbers are likewise females

The license fee is made up of a sum that goes to the FFE and a smaller sum that goes to the province. In Burgundy's case I think 10 Euros of the A license for adult members goes to Burgundy. But I may be wrong and it may be more. The total license fee for a Burgundy player is

A Licenses
Senior 42Eu
Juniors 11-24 Eu depending on age

B Licenses
Senior 6 Eu
Juniors 3 EU

Clubs get money from the state/local government. I think you have to be a member of the FFE to claim the money. I think but I am not sure that my club gets 1000EU. So membership of clubs to the FFE is compulsory but there is a big carrot.

Another interesting quirk is that there are restrictions on moving clubs. In the first year you move clubs you are classed as "mute". Only a certain number of mute players can play for a team. I am not sure how many it is. It may be three in a eight board team.
No taxation without representation

Paul Cooksey

Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:29 pm

@harrylamb I would welcome as much information as you have time to share.

I'm interested if this is a long standing structure? I see the sports affiliation in 2000 - do you know if that was a revolutionary moment?

France have produced more strong GMs in recent years than I recall in the 80's and 90's. I had assumed it was to do with generous sponsorship of their professional chess by some individuals. But reading this, I suspect that is only a contributing factor.

Paul Buswell
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Paul Buswell » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:55 pm

David Robertson wrote:
But hugely interesting (for me if no other) is that the FFE licences players to participate in formal FFE (regional) leagues. No licence; no play in the league. And the annual FFE licence costs €45 per player (c. £40) with minor regional variations. Moreover, the FFE requires that all licenced players be formally registered with an accredited club. It is through affiliated and formally registered clubs that payment for licences is collected annually.

Licences are issued in two main categories: licence sportive for classical chess; and a licence loisir for more 'social chess' including rapidplay.
Don't be blinded by that €45 figure.

That is the Licence A. The Licence B, permitting a year's play in rapidplays (up to one hour each) is €6, or €3 juniors.

A carload of us go to France two or three times a year as there are more rapidplays within half an hour of the Tunnel over there than in all of Kent and Sussex, so we have sometimes paid the Licence B on site (and valid then for the whole season), and sometimes the arbiter has applied an exemption for non-residernt transients.

The point of which is that imho you can't grumble at €6 for entry level affiliation, but you can think that €45 is a bit steep if you are not committed to serious chess.

The stats at http://www.echecs.asso.fr/ seem to show about half of the membership in 2009/10 was Licence A, about half Licence B, if I have interpreted them correctly.

PB

Paul Cooksey

Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:00 pm

Paul Buswell wrote:The point of which is that imho you can't grumble at €6 for entry level affiliation, but you can think that €45 is a bit steep if you are not committed to serious chess.
Again, wow. I wonder if the neighbours can hear me singing the marseillaise?

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:49 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote: Again, wow. I wonder if the neighbours can hear me singing the marseillaise?
Why is that so exciting?

Assuming that Kent or Sussex ran any rapidplays, the cost per head per 5 round tournament going to the ECF would currently be £ 1.35. Under the Farthing plans, if you aren't a club member, your licence to play would be £ 19.

Alex Holowczak
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Alex Holowczak » Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:52 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Paul Cooksey wrote: Again, wow. I wonder if the neighbours can hear me singing the marseillaise?
Why is that so exciting?

Assuming that Kent or Sussex ran any rapidplays, the cost per head per 5 round tournament going to the ECF would currently be £ 1.35. Under the Farthing plans, if you aren't a club member, your licence to play would be £ 19.
The Farthing Plans?

And no it wouldn't, it'd be £6 under pay-to-play. Which is actually quite close to 6 Euros, if you think about it.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:02 pm

Alex Holowczak wrote: And no it wouldn't, it'd be £6 under pay-to-play. Which is actually quite close to 6 Euros, if you think about it.
The 6 euros was a season ticket for a whole season, the £ 6 is per tournament. But it's unclear, does the £ 6 apply regardless of where you live and regardless of your sporting nationality? Version 1 seemed to imply that it did, version 2 (the Gold/Silver/Bronze stuff) implies otherwise.
Farthing letter wrote:In view of the tiered structure proposed above, it is now considered that the “Pay to Play” option should only apply to non-English players in congresses. English players wishing to have their congress games graded will need to become Silver or Gold members.

Paul Cooksey

Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:22 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Paul Cooksey wrote: Again, wow. I wonder if the neighbours can hear me singing the marseillaise?
Why is that so exciting?
Not because I saw it as supporting any of the current proposals. Rather I saw it as a very elegant way to attract entry level players.

G60 fine for most new players, even returning players. Also a good way to convert juniors to adults. Cheap rapidplay getting these people into clubs seemed to me very elegant. Particularly because as they become more committed players they are likely to see the value of the longer competitions. I stand by wow :)

I'm not sure if we can just borrow it. We have a tradition of 3 hour chess. But G60 evening leagues, and FIDE 4NCL, congress, county chess at the weekend certainly has advantages too.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:38 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote: G60 fine for most new players, even returning players. Also a good way to convert juniors to adults. Cheap rapidplay getting these people into clubs seemed to me very elegant. Particularly because as they become more committed players they are likely to see the value of the longer competitions. I stand by wow :)
We have cheap rapid-play now if anyone wants to organise it. £ 1.35 to the ECF per player per tournament. Under the Silver membership proposals it becomes a lot more expensive or players or the whole tournament go ungraded. I agree with you it's a good way of attracting players and publicity, but the ECF are about to make it a whole lot more difficult.

The relative weight of rapid-play to standard play is much higher in France than in England. A wonder if that's anything to do with the incentives created by differential licensing costs.

Paul Cooksey

Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:52 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:We have cheap rapid-play now if anyone wants to organise it.
Indeed, and some people, notably Adam do. If you live near London there are plenty of opportunities.

But the thing the FFE are doing that impressed me, is that they have identified it as a good entry level into competitive chess and set up a structure to encourage it. A federation with a clear strategy for getting people into clubs. Kudos to them.

I don't want to start repeating my previous discussion with Roger on marginal rates. I think he understands I consider club membership important in calculating the cost of chess. But if both the ECF and my club discounted membership for rapid play only, as a strategy to attract new players, I would not mind at all.

Paul Cooksey

Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Paul Cooksey » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:59 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:Indeed, and some people, notably Adam do.
Bourne End CC organise my most local Rapidplay tournament. Embarrassing that I forgot that, given who I am responding to. :oops:

harrylamb
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by harrylamb » Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:16 pm

Paul Cooksey wrote:@harrylamb I would welcome as much information as you have time to share.
Thanks for your interest I was worried that I was writing to much.
Paul Cooksey wrote: I'm interested if this is a long standing structure? I see the sports affiliation in 2000 - do you know if that was a revolutionary moment?
I do not know much about that. I started playing in tournaments in France in 1996 and have played 2-3 a year since. While I was a tournament player I did not take too much interest in French chess organisation etc. In 2004 I started playing for my French chess club and through my club members I became more interested in French organisation
Paul Cooksey wrote:France have produced more strong GMs in recent years than I recall in the 80's and 90's. I had assumed it was to do with generous sponsorship of their professional chess by some individuals. But reading this, I suspect that is only a contributing factor.
If you are doing this comparison you ought to compare the English chess explosion of the 1970's with the French chess explosion of the noughties and the continual decline of English chess starting from the nineties. The 1970 English chess explosion happened because chess organisations encouraged change and encouraged chess playing. New chess counties were born. Up to ten were born. Some were easy births and some had strong birth pains. Most of the effects were very positive. The Lancashire congress became the Bolton congress, because its organisers supported Greater Manchester. Lancashire on the congress front retaliated in the right way setting up Congresses at Blackpool and promoting other congresses in Preston and Rochdale. Cheshire was hurt by the loss of territory to Greater Manchester, but it still supported the foundation of GM. Richard Furness got Cheshire back onto its feet by running new Cheshire congresses. New congresses and new chess happened all over the country all the number of players mushroomed. British international chess flourished. Tony Miles became our first GM and the next generation including Nigel Short and Michael Adams were in the top ten in the world. Indeed Nigel played Kasparov for the world championship. The BCF was part of all this. It was and active organisation. Its AGMs were important, attendances of 70-80 people were common. Because it was very democratic and made important decisions.

The same thing has happened in France in the last 15 years. Its tournaments have expanded dramatically. In July there are about 40 international tournaments in France. In England we have four weekend tournaments and the start of the British Championship. The French Grandmasters have flourished in this atmosphere. Our Grandmasters have declined. At the ECF Council meeting last October only 32 people attended and most of them were officers/directors and other payroll voters. I would have quoted April’s council meeting attendance but the web link to it does not seem to work (sic)

I believe that you can only have strong energetic national chess. If your national chess organisation is strong energetic and believes in promoting chess

Mick Norris somewhere along this thread said that the ECF used to be crap but now we have got a good new set of directors including Adam Raoof, Loz Cooper, CJ and one other who I cannot remember. Well I see a problem. Take Adam Raoof I remember when he used to run international tournaments. At York in 1999 He ran three tournaments.

A tournament you could get a GM norm
A tournament you could get a IM norm
A tournament you could get a Fide rating

And not just York. He ran them all over the country. He dedicated himself to getting English players FIDE ratings. Adam is a tremendously hard worker for chess and for whom I have every respect. But what is he doing this weekend. He is going through the list of about 2,600 ENG players on the FIDE rating list deciding who to throw off. Adam I want you to succeed in your very difficult job as Home chess director. I like you, want to increase the quantity and quality of English chess. So may I give you some advice that I hope will both make you smile and make you think. Throw away your black list and read Animal Farm instead. It will do you and English chess much more good.
No taxation without representation

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Adam Raoof
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Adam Raoof » Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:26 pm

Harry, stop prevaricating and pay your membership fee. It's not too much money to support English chess, and it would make my job easier. Soon everyone will have to be a member ;-)
Adam Raoof IA, IO
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