ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:12 am

Adam Raoof wrote:
Paolo Casaschi wrote:As scary as it looks at first sight, the option of leaving the national rating behind makes sense if you make the FIDE rating more accessible.
I agree with you in principle. However if you take a closer look at FIDE you may see why it makes sense to have control over your own domestic grading system. Once you pull the plug on that voluntary infrastructure it is very difficult to reassemble it if there are problems within FIDE. Nevertheless there are arguments for using Elo ratings, as opposed to FIDE ratings. Also, administrating FIDE rating costs money, which we would have to collect and administer, and our income would have to come from elsewhere.
Having to depend on the FIDE organization is the "scary" part I mentioned :-) but is there a point to have a national duplicate for the sake of it? and keep it just in case FIDE fails to deliver at some point? You should talk with your peers at the Italian federation, they are phasing out national rating (easier for them to do a gradual phase-out since the national system is Elo based as well).

About the voluntary infrastructure, I agree that is a great asset, but in an environment with so much limited resources you might want to keep those people busy (and motivated) with something more relevant.

Personally, I don't see the point in switching from ECF to Elo for a national rating. I might be wrong (I am so often, especially at chess :), but the more I think about it, the more my gut feeling is that national ratings will eventually be irrelevant; as such it's probably not a good idea to spend lot of effort to switch form ECF to Elo.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:23 am

Adam Raoof wrote:Also, administrating FIDE rating costs money, which we would have to collect and administer, and our income would have to come from elsewhere.
If things will go according to the FIDE plans you will have increased FIDE rating administration costs anyway.
Better financially to keep the ECF grading and slow down the adoption of FIDE rating at the lower end or to scrap the ECF grading and promote the adoption of FIDE rating at the lower end? Do you think the former is cheaper?

Anyway, the title of this thread gives you the answer: compulsory ECF membership for anyone on the FIDE list as ECF. You dont have to change that part of the plan (only tune the membership levels, but that's minor).

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:36 am

Paolo Casaschi wrote:You should talk with your peers at the Italian federation, they are phasing out national rating (easier for them to do a gradual phase-out since the national system is Elo based as well).
My first ever tournament outside Britain was in Italy. I was seriously under-impressed by the delays to the start of the first round which seemed to require Italian players to present membership cards in order to be allowed to play. I would have compared this unfavourably with Stewart Reuben inspired tournaments in England which started on time on a Friday evening at 7 pm and got the late entrants or players without opponents under way at 7.30pm at the latest.

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Paolo Casaschi
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Paolo Casaschi » Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:24 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Paolo Casaschi wrote:You should talk with your peers at the Italian federation, they are phasing out national rating (easier for them to do a gradual phase-out since the national system is Elo based as well).
My first ever tournament outside Britain was in Italy. I was seriously under-impressed by the delays to the start of the first round which seemed to require Italian players to present membership cards in order to be allowed to play. I would have compared this unfavourably with Stewart Reuben inspired tournaments in England which started on time on a Friday evening at 7 pm and got the late entrants or players without opponents under way at 7.30pm at the latest.
Well, just copy the good things from the Italian federation... delays in starting events (first round in particular) happen more often that you'd like. I think more than anything else it's just a bad habit that is tolerated a way more than it should... but hey, if you ever had a dinner appointment with a group of Italian friends you would not be surprised by what happened at your tournament (I can say this without risk of being accused of cheap xenophobia because... I'm Italian... so be careful if you are not)

Sean Hewitt

Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Sean Hewitt » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:30 pm

Adam,

If the ECF are to implement this policy successfully, then it needs to have a coherent and robust policy to deal with deregistered players who subsequently pay their membership fee ; presumably this is the desired outcome following deregistration.

It is disappointing therefore to see that at least one deregistered player who joined the ECF at the start of the British Championships and played in the Championship itself is still showing as deregistered on the FIDE website.

Hopefully you can correct this http://ratings.fide.com/card.phtml?event=416860 and any other anomaly.

Sean

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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:41 am

Sean Hewitt wrote:It is disappointing therefore to see that at least one deregistered player who joined the ECF at the start of the British Championships and played in the Championship itself is still showing as deregistered on the FIDE website.
Cross checking this against the most recent membership list would suggest that the ECF are still following their interpretation that for FIDE purposes, membership equals Guarantor membership. The player in question being on the second tab. According to the ECF's older interpretations, the player shouldn't have been allowed to play in the British Championship as not a member of the ECF. It might be that if you leave the ECF, then your guarantor form becomes obsolete ( you would hope it does) and you need to sign a new one if you rejoin.

I know it was all hogwash about FIDE and membership, but when the ECF has a long track record of half truths on this issue, it does rather encourage an attitude of "them (the ECF) and us" (players and local organisations) which was commented on by the CEO in the most recent ChessMoves.


Incidently I note that a supposedly suspended GM is shown with his rating as playing in the Davos tournament.

LozCooper

Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by LozCooper » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:52 am

Roger de Coverly wrote:
Sean Hewitt wrote:It is disappointing therefore to see that at least one deregistered player who joined the ECF at the start of the British Championships and played in the Championship itself is still showing as deregistered on the FIDE website.
Incidently I note that a supposedly suspended GM is shown with his rating as playing in the Davos tournament.
Hi Roger,

Although I'm not the director implementing this there is no question of any player being "suspended" Players are still able to play in tournaments abroad without ECF membership even if their rating has been de-activated and their games will be rated in the same way. This also applies to the other English player playing in Davos who is not an ECF member.

Similarly, two players who were interested in playing at Big Slick who had been de-activated by the All Indian Federation for playing in a rival organisation event are still free to play in rated events abroad without it affecting their games being rated.

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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:19 am

LozCooper wrote:Although I'm not part of the implementation of this there is no question of any player being "suspended" Players are still able to play in tournaments abroad without ECF membership even if their rating has been de-activated and their games will be rated in the same way. This also applies to the other English player playing in Davos who is not an ECF member.
That does rather cause me to wonder whether the approach adopted by the ECF Board is the most sensible one they could have adopted.

I hope there's no question of anyone who has paid the membership subscription being de-activated from the FIDE rating list simply because (s)he hasn't signed the white form. A (then) senior ECF official suggested this approach to me a few years ago and I told him that it was the quickest way to ensure that a motion of no confidence in him would be tabled for the next Council Meeting. My views have not changed in the interim.

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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:29 am

LozCooper wrote: Although I'm not part of the implementation of this there is no question of any player being "suspended" Players are still able to play in tournaments abroad without ECF membership even if their rating has been de-activated and their games will be rated in the same way. This also applies to the other English player playing in Davos who is not an ECF member.
However, were the ECF or any Federation to suspend a player for cheating or whatever, the hiding of data is how it might look on the FIDE website, so it gives that impression.

Your fellow director announced at the start of this thread.
This may affect their entitlement to play in any FIDE rated event, including the British Championships, London Classic, 4NCL and any title events. It will also affect their entitlement to remain an ECF accredited coach.
I agree it says may not will, but the threat of being prevented from playing is there. If it isn't intended to prevent players playing outside England, the removal exercise was pointless, since if it's a condition of entry that players be members of the ECF to play in a rated event in England, they would have to rejoin to play in British Championships, London Chess Classic, 4NCL etc. So Max for example would have to be a member of two federations because he plays 4NCL, but Harry (and other ex-pats) wouldn't if their only FIDE chess was French or elsewhere.

With the present interpretation, it gives the suspended players a marginal advantage since their rating history is invisible. If your database is either obsolete or incomplete, the FIDE rating history is a useful source of intelligence. So you check what events your opponent has played and check if the events have websites with games to download.
Last edited by Roger de Coverly on Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:37 am

David Sedgwick wrote: I hope there's no question of anyone who has paid the membership subscription being de-activated from the FIDE rating list simply because (s)he hasn't signed the white form..
There's at least one player who is "suspended" according to FIDE, who is on the "registered" tab of the membership list.

The ECF and MOs make the point in published statements that you need to sign the white form to play in FIDE rated events. Presumably if your membership lapses, your white form lapses with it (or does it?) Therefore if rejoining you need to sign another one.

From http://www.nccu.org.uk/nccumo/index.htm
The white forms are included as an option for players to fill in to become an ECF Direct member. - The only difference between this and being a Basic member (under the NCCU MO) is that you must be a Direct Member to enter FIDE rated events.

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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:46 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:
David Sedgwick wrote: I hope there's no question of anyone who has paid the membership subscription being de-activated from the FIDE rating list simply because (s)he hasn't signed the white form..
There's at least one player who is "suspended" according to FIDE, who is on the "registered" tab of the membership list.
Can you provide a link to a list showing these "registered" tabs? Or do you have access to a more detailed list than is available online?

Roger de Coverly wrote:The ECF and MOs make the point in published statements that you need to sign the white form to play in FIDE rated events.
That's somewhat different from de-activating a player's rating if (s)he hasn't signed the white form.

Roger de Coverly wrote:Presumably if your membership lapses, your white form lapses with it (or does it?) Therefore if rejoining you need to sign another one.
I would have thought that would depend on whether the new payment was treated as a renewal, backdated to the due date, or as a completely fresh application after an interval. I renewed a bit late last year and I wasn't asked to sign a new form; my punishment was that I was deprived of the ECF diary.

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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Roger de Coverly » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:14 pm

David Sedgwick wrote: Can you provide a link to a list showing these "registered" tabs? Or do you have access to a more detailed list than is available online?
The most recent membership list on the ECF website is the file 29-July-2011.xls.

This has two tabs

The first is labelled DMS All Categories and the second Reg Members.

When asked what this meant, the explanation was that the Reg Members tab contained people who hadn't signed the white form ( presumably the ECF gets the names as listings from MOs). These are not members in the sense of being Guarantor members and the ECF insists ( or should that now be past tense) that this meant they didn't count as members for FIDE purposes. It's even possible that there are people on the list who don't even know they are ECF "members" as the MOs might just be paying the ECF on a per head basis for everyone taking part in local events.

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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by David Sedgwick » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:40 pm

Thank you for the explanation, Roger.

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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Howard Grist » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:03 pm

David Sedgwick wrote:I hope there's no question of anyone who has paid the membership subscription being de-activated from the FIDE rating list simply because (s)he hasn't signed the white form..
No attention has been paid as to whether the white form has been signed when deciding who should be de-activated.

With regard to the membership list, the first worksheet - 'DMS All Categories' - contains a list of people who have paid money directly to the ECF for membership, and have mainly, but not always, signed the white form. The second worksheet - 'Reg Members' - is a list of members who have joined through a MO. As it happens, none of them seem to have signed the white form, but this is incidental to their inclusion on this list.
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Adam Raoof
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Adam Raoof » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:13 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:Incidently I note that a supposedly suspended GM is shown with his rating as playing in the Davos tournament.
Any games played against a deregistered player will not count for title norms.

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