ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

[Roger de Coverly]

With regard to the membership list, the first worksheet - 'DMS All Categories' - contains a list of people who have paid money directly to the ECF for membership, and have mainly, but not always, signed the white form. The second worksheet - 'Reg Members' - is a list of members who have joined through a MO. As it happens, none of them seem to have signed the white form, but this is incidental to their inclusion on this list.

I don't think that's quite the case. The first list almost certainly contains MO members, these can usually be identified by the renewal date of 31st August and the number sequence. A column headed "ECF Member" containing the value "true" or "false" is a bit of a give away. Presumably the office is required to maintain a list of Guarantors and it's an extract from this list which they have published.

The DMS Members tab also contains the handful of Corporate Vice-Presidents. The names of CCF and Hastings Chess Club also feature.

What's missing is the membership category, this was deliberately withheld. You can however identify Family members from the multiple names with the same membership number and infer MOs from the renewal date and numeric sequence.

For what it's worth, the totals in each category are around 3050 in the first and 550 in the second. The total of active FIDE rated players is around 800. The count of 31st August renewals is around 1250. By no means all of these are MOs though.

[Roger de Coverly]

Any games played against a deregistered player will not count for title norms.

Presumably that's relying on http://www.fide.com/fide/handbook.html? ... ew=article, 1.42a which does indeed state

1.42 Games as follows are not included.
1.42a against opponents who do not belong to FIDE federations.

The thing is though, that there are numerous federations which don't have individual membership schemes so that belong to does not have to imply individual paying membership. On the rating rule FIDE are now interpreting "member of a Federation" to just mean that the national chess federation has to be a FIDE member. There was a player in the 2010 and 2011 Major Open whose rating isn't formally published because the national federation he wants to be a member of, hasn't got its act together and paid the necessary fees and whatever else to FIDE.

There's a longish thread on the Chess Scotland forum. http://scotchess.s4.bizhat.com/scotches ... asc-0.html
The implication is that the GM in question still "belongs" to the ECF in the sense that it has to give permission to transfer.

[Sean Hewitt]

Any games played against a deregistered player will not count for title norms.

Adam, have you checked that view with FIDE? I ask because, according to the FIDE office, that's not the case. According to FIDE such players can play in FIDE rated events, their games will be rated in accordance with their calculated rating (whether published or not), and such games will count for title norms.

Additionally, any news regarding reactivating players who have paid their ECF membership and how long that might take?

[Adam Raoof]

Any games played against a deregistered player will not count for title norms.

Adam, have you checked that view with FIDE? I ask because, according to the FIDE office, that's not the case. According to FIDE such players can play in FIDE rated events, their games will be rated in accordance with their calculated rating (whether published or not), and such games will count for title norms.

Additionally, any news regarding reactivating players who have paid their ECF membership and how long that might take?

We're reactivating those players as I type.

Can you quote the communication with the FIDE Office that says the games will count for title norms?

[Sean Hewitt]

Can you quote the communication with the FIDE Office that says the games will count for title norms?

Yes I can The email is safely stored

Can you quote your communication from the FIDE office that says that they don't?

[Sean Hewitt]

We're reactivating those players as I type.

Great stuff.

Will this happen automatically in future or will organisers have to ensure the ECF reactivates said players?!

[Richard Bates]

Any games played against a deregistered player will not count for title norms.

Adam, have you checked that view with FIDE? I ask because, according to the FIDE office, that's not the case. According to FIDE such players can play in FIDE rated events, their games will be rated in accordance with their calculated rating (whether published or not), and such games will count for title norms.

Additionally, any news regarding reactivating players who have paid their ECF membership and how long that might take?

We're reactivating those players as I type.

Can you quote the communication with the FIDE Office that says the games will count for title norms?

It looks to me as if the ECF are trying to impose conditions on FIDE, in order to secure backing for their own membership requirements. I don't think they'll win that battle. I suspect that FIDE are somewhat reluctant to take sides in player/federation disputes, or if they do will generally come down on the side of the player. A bit similar to players being allowed to play under FIDE flags when their Federation is in dispute with FIDE.

What is the white form and where don't i sign it?

[Roger de Coverly]

What is the white form and where don't i sign it?

It's the form whereby you guarantee the ECF one pound in the event of its demise. I expect you (or someone in your family) signed it back in 2005.

[Adam Raoof]

http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/ ... icle&id=58

1.4 The GM, IM, WGM, WIM titles can also be gained by achieving norms in internationally rated tournaments played according to the following regulations.

etc

1.42 Games as follows are not included.
1.42a against opponents who do not belong to FIDE federations.

[David Sedgwick]

http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/ ... icle&id=58

1.4 The GM, IM, WGM, WIM titles can also be gained by achieving norms in internationally rated tournaments played according to the following regulations.

etc

1.42 Games as follows are not included.
1.42a against opponents who do not belong to FIDE federations.

I believe this is supposed to cover a situation where a player's Federation has ceased to be a member of FIDE, or has never been a member.

As Roger and Sean have pointed out, a player whose rating has been de-activated is still considered to belong to his/her Federation.

[Richard Bates]

http://www.fide.com/component/handbook/ ... icle&id=58

1.4 The GM, IM, WGM, WIM titles can also be gained by achieving norms in internationally rated tournaments played according to the following regulations.

etc

1.42 Games as follows are not included.
1.42a against opponents who do not belong to FIDE federations.

I believe this is supposed to cover a situation where a player's Federation has ceased to be a member of FIDE, or has never been a member.

As Roger and Sean have pointed out, a player whose rating has been de-activated is still considered to belong to his/her Federation.

Quite - the ECF seems to be choosing its own interpretation of somewhat ambiguous regulations (the word 'belong' could mean several things and as you say the emphasis could anyway be said to be on whether the Federation is a FIDE one, rather than the status of the player with that Federation), and expecting FIDE to agree with them.

Will the ECF be sending a representative to all future title norm committees with a mandate to object to all title applications involving deactivated English players?

It is interesting the point that Roger makes above about deactivated players actually having an ADVANTAGE from their histories being hidden.

[Adam Raoof]

As Roger and Sean have pointed out, a player whose rating has been de-activated is still considered to belong to his/her Federation.

You may of course be absolutely right. It would save a lot of emails if you could persuade Sean to actually post the email he has received from FIDE which establishes this. Otherwise I am just pointing out the FIDE rules.

[Sean Hewitt]

It would save a lot of emails if you could persuade Sean to actually post the email he has received from FIDE which establishes this. Otherwise I am just pointing out the FIDE rules.

Adam, as you've asked I'm happy to quote the email below. I've blanked out the rating so as not to identify the player.

It might save alot of time and emails in future if you actually checked these things with FIDE.

Dear Sean Hewitt,

Yes, he can play. He is FM and his current rating is ****.

Best regards,
Gennady Rakhvalov
http://www.FIDE.com
- Hide quoted text -

you wrote:

Hello,

The above player has entered our IM norm all play all event but the FIDE website shows no rating or title for him. Could you please confirm that he is eligible for the event and if so, his rating for the purposes of the tournament.

Many thanks,

Sean

[Adam Raoof]

I know the player you are referring to in your email. He joined the ECF without delay and his rating and title were immediately restored / awarded. This is not the same if a player is persistently refusing to pay the ECF a membership fee and is deregistered as a result. However I will ask Gennady the question and post the answer here.

[Sean Hewitt]

I know the player you are referring to in your email.

You clearly don't Adam. The player in question is not English.