ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

[Paolo Casaschi]

Everything is negotiable. I would expect FIDE lowering the requirement for grading while extending the list towards the 1000 mark. I dont see many people worth 1200 Elo FIDE playing in week-long events. To make a list down to 1000 successful you need to make it easier for tournaments to be graded.

FIDE are ahead of you on this one: if every competitor in a tournament is rated under 2200, the event can be rated with 3-hour sessions; if every competitor is rated under 1600, the event can be rated with 2-hour sessions.

I did not lookup the rules, but it makes a lot of sense.

As scary as it looks at first sight, the option of leaving the national rating behind makes sense if you make the FIDE rating more accessible.

[Alex Holowczak]

As scary as it looks at first sight, the option of leaving the national rating behind makes sense if you make the FIDE rating more accessible.

This isn't an immediate likelihood. If, for sake of argument, the Birmingham League decided to FIDE-rate all its events - it has a long enough playing session via adjournment to do so, but would need to tweak it's first time control to move 40 - there'd be scarcely any point, because so few of the players who play in it have FIDE ratings in the first place. No one would ever get a part-rating.

[Paul Cooksey]

I'm a member of the ECF since I started playing in this country, I think that regardless of immediate personal returns it makes sense to support the organization holding chess together in the country. Especially if the annual fee is a reasonable amount (compared to the cost of more popular hobbies).

Which does Paolo credit. We seem to be having a hard time convincing all the English players!

I'm very surprised of the discussion in this thread focusing so much on game fees and grading. If that is such a burden to manage, why not getting rid of all this and push people on the FIDE rating list?

@Paolo The game fee and the grading are not directly connected. Game fee is how the ECF currently collects over half its revenue. But the cost of grading is not its main expense.

[Roger de Coverly]

Does anyone have statistics about how many games are rated FIDE in England and how many games are graded ECF?

Details of FIDE tournaments are here
http://ratings.fide.com/tournament_list ... 2011-07-01
I'm not sure I've ever seen a summary.

ECF detail here http://www.sccu.ndo.co.uk/grad.htm

It's around 206,000 half games, 103,000 actual games

I would doubt if FIDE rated games, even including games in FIDE events between non-rated players were more than 10% of the total.

[Mick Norris]

4-hour sessions are the norm for congresses in the South-West (the most common time control being 40/100' + G/20').

I can't think of a congress in the MCCU that has 4-hour sessions, other than the Atkins Memorial run by Sean. They're virtually all 36/90 + G/15, apart from two which are 35/75 + G/15.

Bolton Easter is 40/100 + G/20

Manchester Autumn was too, but is going to be G/80 + 30 sec move from move 1

Both events are part of the MCCU Grand Prix

[Alex Holowczak]

4-hour sessions are the norm for congresses in the South-West (the most common time control being 40/100' + G/20').

I can't think of a congress in the MCCU that has 4-hour sessions, other than the Atkins Memorial run by Sean. They're virtually all 36/90 + G/15, apart from two which are 35/75 + G/15.

Bolton Easter is 40/100 + G/20

Manchester Autumn was too, but is going to be G/80 + 30 sec move from move 1

Both events are part of the MCCU Grand Prix

Fair enough; I didn't know about Bolton. Either way though, that's only two congresses if you include that with the Atkins.

[Mick Norris]

There are only 5 congresses in the Midlands Grand Prix

[Paul Cooksey]

drifting further - FIDE doesn't seem to have a rapidplay list (which we could use for our league chess...)

It intended to, at one point, right?

[Alex Holowczak]

There are only 5 congresses in the Midlands Grand Prix

But there are other congresses within MCCU territory that aren't in the Grand Prix, because they have no Open section. Wrekin, Staffordshire (Bloxwich) and Leek spring to mind off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other Stars-Barred events around. Worcestershire runs a congress that isn't in the Grand Prix for some reason, despite having an Open section.

[Alex Holowczak]

drifting further - FIDE doesn't seem to have a rapidplay list (which we could use for our league chess...)

It intended to, at one point, right?

FIDE has recently founded the Foundation for Modernisation, or a body to that effect. Take a read of this. It does indeed suggest rapid and blitz ratings.

[Adam Raoof]

Why doesn't someone ask the ECF what it would do if it could generate an additional say £100k of income every year, with no additional associated cost? I'd be interested to know, because then I would be able to decide whether it may be worth supporting.

For me, this one is easy. I would buy a decent sized, multi purpose freehold space that could be a permanent home for the ECF Office, but more importantly a national chess centre. I would probably partner up with a commercial outfit like Chess and Bridge to retail equipment, and make sure there was enough space to hold tournaments in good conditions every day of the year. Personally I would want it to be in London, and roughly in the area of NW4

FOC: how many votes do I get for £100 a year? Do I get the same number of votes as someone else who pays £100 a year?

[Adam Raoof]

Everything is negotiable. I would expect FIDE lowering the requirement for grading while extending the list towards the 1000 mark. I dont see many people worth 1200 Elo FIDE playing in week-long events. To make a list down to 1000 successful you need to make it easier for tournaments to be graded.

FIDE are ahead of you on this one: if every competitor in a tournament is rated under 2200, the event can be rated with 3-hour sessions; if every competitor is rated under 1600, the event can be rated with 2-hour sessions.

I did not lookup the rules, but it makes a lot of sense.

As scary as it looks at first sight, the option of leaving the national rating behind makes sense if you make the FIDE rating more accessible.

I agree with you in principle. However if you take a closer look at FIDE you may see why it makes sense to have control over your own domestic grading system. Once you pull the plug on that voluntary infrastructure it is very difficult to reassemble it if there are problems within FIDE. Nevertheless there are arguments for using Elo ratings, as opposed to FIDE ratings. Also, administrating FIDE rating costs money, which we would have to collect and administer, and our income would have to come from elsewhere.

[harrylamb]

If Max and Harry can tell us what we can learn from Norway and France (who both seem more successful than us) then great

Sorry it has taken so long for me to pick up Mick's invitation. But I have been working in China for two weeks so this is the first opportunity I have had to respond. The big difference between the ECF and the Fédération Française des Echecs (FFE). Is that the FFE controls virtually all chess in France. Every chess league I have come across is organised or controlled by the FFE . This includes the most basic regional leagues. In addition they are all united by promotion/relegation so you can start off in the Ligue de Bourgogne and if you keep winning finish up in the top division of the national league. Most congresses use the facilities on the FFE website to publicise their event including putting the draws, results charts, etc on the FFE website as the event progresses. Junior chess and women's chess all come under the same system. The FFE appears to have reached this situation not by bullying and blackmail as the ECF in my opinion is doing. But by running chess and offering facilities to help players / officials to organise chess.

Have a look at its website at
http://www.echecs.asso.fr/Default.aspx?Cat=12&lg=en

It is much superior to the ECF website. You can tell that by the number of users. When I looked today there were 1010 users surfing it. This forum had three. The ECF does not put up the number of its users.

In comparison, the only chess within England that the ECF promotes successfully in my opinion is the British Championship Congress and the ECF Grading list. In England if you want to promote chess you do not do it through the ECF. Because if you do you will fail. You promote it as an, individual, or as a committee of some other organisation. But not the ECF. Strong words perhaps but consider the facts

National Chess League. Run by the 4NCL
Other chess Leagues . Run by independent organisations
National Junior Chess competition. Run by Mike Basman
Lower level Junior Chess. Run by organisations such as EPSCA
International tournaments. Run by independent organisations such as the Hastings congress committee E2E4, and Coulsdon
Weekend congresses. Not organised by the ECF. They are all independently run.

Because it does not organise chess but instead taxes others that do organise chess the ECF is not well liked. It is not well liked on an individual level. And It has financial conflicts with other chess institutions. For example it has had conflicts with the 4NCL and fairly recently E2E4 threatened to abandon all its events because of a dispute with the ECF.

I guess ultimately the measure of effectiveness of a chess body is the number of members it has. On this measure France is a much more successful organisation than the ECF. The FFE has 54,550 members. I am not sure how many the ECF has but its income in 2009-10 was £39,690 from Direct members and £12,094 from MO’s. I guess that equates to under 3,000 members . As I said earlier I believe that the FFE's success has been achieved by promoting chess. Not by taxing other peoples efforts

Inside the FFE’s membership figures are some heroic efforts by clubs

Cannes Chess Club claims a membership of about 2000 with 664 members of the FFE. Has eight employees
Nice. There are just under 1000 members of the FFE in Nice
Esbarres and Bonnencontre Chess Club. Over 100 members of which 85 are members of the FFE

The last club is my chess club. Esbarres and Bonnencontre are two villages in the heart of rural Burgundy. The total combined population of the two villages is about 2000. Although its membership is drawn from a wider area. At over 100 members it may well be bigger than any chess club in England. But in terms of membership it is only 108th in France.

[Roger de Coverly]

I guess ultimately the measure of effectiveness of a chess body is the number of members it has.

For a national chess body don't you mean number of players? The big expansion in the 1970s was in players not BCF members. Some national federations don't even have individual memberships.

But at around 12,000 nationally graded players, the English chess numbers are much lower than the French.

[Alex Holowczak]

National Chess League. Run by the 4NCL
Other chess Leagues . Run by independent organisations
National Junior Chess competition. Run by Mike Basman
Lower level Junior Chess. Run by organisations such as EPSCA
International tournaments. Run by independent organisations such as the Hastings congress committee E2E4, and Coulsdon
Weekend congresses. Not organised by the ECF. They are all independently run.

I think part of the problem is that county associations existed before the BCF. So they already had their own competitions up and running. This evolved over time until we reach 2011, where the culture is that the ECF doesn't run many events, and others run them and they affiliate.

The BCF ran junior competitions, specifically the British Junior Championships. Then in the late 80s/early 90s, along came the UKCC, EPSCA was probably established by then, and things like Junior Squad came along.

Similarly, the 4NCL came along - I understand from hearsay - because of a reluctance to reform the National Club.

So in the last 20 years, it was a case of someone else runs the tournament, which then affiliates.

Suppose an equivalent to the Junior Squad came along in France, and started to run trips and things. Would they have free rein to do so? You may reply that people don't feel the need to - fine - but what if they did?

Stewart Reuben often says that a strength of English chess is that people have free rein to run their own events, but this seems to me to be to the detriment of the ECF.