ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Debate directly related to English Chess Federation matters.
Jonathan Bryant
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Jonathan Bryant » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:13 pm

OK,

since there's been some interest RDK turning up at the opening ceremony, I've published the post tonight

http://streathambrixtonchess.blogspot.c ... y-ecf.html

albeit it in a very much more 'stripped down' form than I'd originally intended. The ECF response to some questions on the matter is given, but without any commentary from me (because I haven't had the chance to write it).

Richard Bates
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Richard Bates » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:32 pm

Carl Hibbard wrote:He is of course

'one of the world’s most influential figures in the chess universe'

:lol:
Actually i think he is extremely influential. Maybe not in the limited "chess universe" but as a bridge between the chess world and the outside world. That is the potential power IMO of the Times chess column. A shame that there isn't a way of creating competition for the post.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:10 pm

Richard Bates wrote:
Carl Hibbard wrote:He is of course

'one of the world’s most influential figures in the chess universe'

:lol:
Actually i think he is extremely influential. Maybe not in the limited "chess universe" but as a bridge between the chess world and the outside world. That is the potential power IMO of the Times chess column. A shame that there isn't a way of creating competition for the post.
I agree. Anyone who buys the Times would naturally think that he is one of the main men, and a lot of well connected people buy the Times. I was chatting to a judge who sits in the Court of Appeal last year and when I mentioned that I was a competitive chess player, he asked "oh, have you played this chap Keene, then?"

LozCooper

Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by LozCooper » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:06 am

I was greeted by this posting on facebook tonight:

Raymond Keene
Help him find his friends.

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Sebastian Stone
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Sebastian Stone » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:51 pm

Jonathan Rogers wrote: I agree. Anyone who buys the Times would naturally think that he is one of the main men, and a lot of well connected people buy the Times. I was chatting to a judge who sits in the Court of Appeal last year and when I mentioned that I was a competitive chess player, he asked "oh, have you played this chap Keene, then?"
You mean he's not? :shock:
AKA Scott Stone

"Give a man fire and he's warm for a day, set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life."

That's Mr Stone to you, f**kface.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Roger de Coverly » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:04 pm

From the Chess Scotland forum

http://scotchess.s4.bizhat.com/scotches ... 4-113.html
how it is that some events / tournaments manage to FIDE rate their games even when many of the participants are not affiliated to a national body - SNCL is the the one that first comes to mind. Isn't this just a straight breach of FIDE rules?

We had misinterpreted the FIDE regulation which says that players had to be members of a federation - as in card carrying members. FIDE's use of the term membership really means belonging to a federation ie a CS non-member born here is still a member of the Scottish federation.

It should have been obvious the interpretation was wrong since several federations dont have individual domestic membership schemes - notably the Russians.

So now FIDE rating is compiled for all players whether they are CS members or not. However the FIDE fee for SCO registered non CS members is £2 but only £1 for members.

Jonathan Rogers
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Jonathan Rogers » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:43 pm

Sebastian Stone wrote:
Jonathan Rogers wrote: I agree. Anyone who buys the Times would naturally think that he is one of the main men, and a lot of well connected people buy the Times. I was chatting to a judge who sits in the Court of Appeal last year and when I mentioned that I was a competitive chess player, he asked "oh, have you played this chap Keene, then?"
You mean he's not? :shock:
The Streatham Blog has an amusing entry on this, detailing his several Twitter entries to the effect

"oh, today I opened the British" (subtext - as one might expect)

a couple of days later

"why is no one mentioning that I opened the British?"

...

"I did open the British, you know!"

"I demand that malcolm mentions that I opened the British!"

next week

"Malcolm has admitted his oversight and has promised to mention that I opened the British!"

"Why does the ECF not mention on its website that I opened the British?"

etc, to page 94.

Paul McKeown
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Paul McKeown » Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:53 pm

Would like to suggest this be classified as

Some people are Ray; get over it.

But that won't wash, will it? Ray Keene has a back story and someone at the ECF should have formally approved him opening the Championship, it shouldn't have been an off the cuff invitation from the President.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:29 pm

From the letter of 22nd June ( the one about categories of membership)
It is intended to present Council with proposals for the establishment of a new chess charity. This would take on all of the ECF’s principal activities in respect of amateur chess, i.e. in practice, everything except International chess, the British Championships (in whole or in part) and interaction with FIDE (including rating and titles) and the European Chess Union.

It is envisaged that the membership scheme set out above would relate to the new charity, not the body dealing with professional chess.
So is the ECF going to admit that the FIDE rules do not require national federations to set up a compulsory individual membership scheme for internationally rated players? If not, then it is going to be insisting that amateur players taking part in "professional" events should be members of the "professional" body.

There's a similar article in the current BCM which raises almost more questions than it answers. One of the bigger questions is that with one of the ECF's major expenditures being the office in Battle, how do the functions and costs in Battle split between "amateur ECF" and "professional ECF"?

E Michael White
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by E Michael White » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:21 pm

Roger de Coverly wrote:From the letter of 22nd June ( the one about categories of membership)
It is intended to present Council with proposals for the establishment of a new chess charity. This would take on all of the ECF’s principal activities in respect of amateur chess, i.e. in practice, everything except International chess, the British Championships (in whole or in part) and interaction with FIDE (including rating and titles) and the European Chess Union.

It is envisaged that the membership scheme set out above would relate to the new charity, not the body dealing with professional chess.
So is the ECF going to admit that the FIDE rules do not require national federations to set up a compulsory individual membership scheme for internationally rated players? If not, then it is going to be insisting that amateur players taking part in "professional" events should be members of the "professional" body.

There's a similar article in the current BCM which raises almost more questions than it answers. One of the bigger questions is that with one of the ECF's major expenditures being the office in Battle, how do the functions and costs in Battle split between "amateur ECF" and "professional ECF"?
Roger I think I understand your point here which may be that FIDE recognise only one chess federation per territory and whether this will be the professional or amateur part of the ECF.

What would concern me more is the amount of nonsense written about chess charitable status and the reasons various players put forward for it not working or not being available. CASCs are often confused with charities, income tax with vat and fund raising events with normal business. As the next council meeting approaches it would be unsatisfactory if council members are asked to vote on options which may not be the best and due to lack of information it would be a random vote.

This should probably be a different thread but no doubt JR or CH can move it. It might be useful if you, and others, could cast your discerning eyes over proposals and list out any reservations you have so that others can offer their view and any council members will be better informed. In connection with your last point office expense allocation is an accountancy matter. Deciding where to put the office is more interesting. While I am not an accountant I am aware there are various choices which could be considered here and the skilful bit is to assess the future direction of activities to find the best place for the office. If it were up to me I think I might try negotiating an agreement with the Charity commission and HMRC to regard IMs and GMs as professionals and the rest as amateurs.

Roger de Coverly
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Roger de Coverly » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:50 pm

E Michael White wrote:Roger I think I understand your point here which may be that FIDE recognise only one chess federation per territory and whether this will be the professional or amateur part of the ECF.
I think it's clear that the FIDE affiliate will be the existing CLG, in other words the existing ECF and this will become the "professional" ECF. The running costs, the membership and guarantor structure and how it will raise money all remain issues.
E Michael White wrote:In connection with your last point office expense allocation is an accountancy matter.
If you have one organisation with one set of directors, it's purely an internal matter. Once you get two organisations with two sets of directors and two AGMs, then how you allocate expenses is more important because it affects how you raise funds and where you make profits or surplus. As perhaps you are suggesting, the two organisations don't need to share premises or staff. If the "professional" ECF only handles (part of) the British Championships, international teams, international rating and other FIDE related issues, does it need any full-time employed staff?
E Michael White wrote:What would concern me more is the amount of nonsense written about chess charitable status and the reasons various players put forward for it not working or not being available. CASCs are often confused with charities, income tax with vat and fund raising events with normal business. As the next council meeting approaches it would be unsatisfactory if council members are asked to vote on options which may not be the best and due to lack of information it would be a random vote.
We come back to the question of what the ECF does and why does it do it. If you look solely at the major expenditure items, then
(a) it runs an office in Battle
(b) it runs an annual Chess Congress, although this is expected to be self supporting
(c) it runs international teams in major World and European events
(d) it runs junior and international junior teams, training and events although these are mostly financed by the John Robinson Trust and other grants or charities plus the families of the participants.
(e) it co-ordinates a national grading system

Some clear guidelines on what can and cannot be made to work as CSC, charity status, Gift Aid etc. would be very useful. Is it even sensible for a national body to be the CSC?

Ray Sayers

Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Ray Sayers » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:51 pm

I've kinda got lost with all the pages of arguments.

I didn't even know this rule was coming into force. I just re-joined the ECF earlier this month (I hardly play but I thought I would this season after playing a few last season).

Looking at my page on the FIDE site, it looks like I lost my rating(?!) or got deactivated. Does re-joining the ECF mean my FIDE profile will be updated?

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Adam Raoof
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Adam Raoof » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:58 pm

Ray Sayers wrote:I've kinda got lost with all the pages of arguments.

I didn't even know this rule was coming into force. I just re-joined the ECF earlier this month (I hardly play but I thought I would this season after playing a few last season).

Looking at my page on the FIDE site, it looks like I lost my rating(?!) or got deactivated. Does re-joining the ECF mean my FIDE profile will be updated?
Yes, but you should contact Howard Grist, the ECF International Rating Officer – howard.grist@talk21.com - to make sure this happens smoothly.

Ray Sayers

Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Ray Sayers » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:07 pm

I thank you :D

Alan Walton
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Re: ENG FIDE Ratings must be ECF Members

Post by Alan Walton » Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:27 am

Adam Raoof wrote:
Ray Sayers wrote:I've kinda got lost with all the pages of arguments.

I didn't even know this rule was coming into force. I just re-joined the ECF earlier this month (I hardly play but I thought I would this season after playing a few last season).

Looking at my page on the FIDE site, it looks like I lost my rating(?!) or got deactivated. Does re-joining the ECF mean my FIDE profile will be updated?
Yes, but you should contact Howard Grist, the ECF International Rating Officer – howard.grist@talk21.com - to make sure this happens smoothly.
So the ECF are very efficient in informing FIDE to deactivate you from the rating list, but once you become a member again, we have to contact somebody that the process to reactivate your rating runs smoothly

Shouldn't this just be a given, and isn't it a minimum expectation that it will be done within a certain time frame, without individuals having to chase things up

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